Evolution and the Pope

Quote: petroglyph

Dare you reply to the querie "do you or have you placed your hand near your heart and pledge allegiance",

In grade school in the 50's, that's the only
time we were made to recite it. It wasn't a
choice, it was mandatory. We had no idea
what any of it meant.

Quote: petroglyph

Could any of you Godless heathens tell me whether or not you put your hand near your heart and recite the "pledge of allegiance",

I've been burned by touching a bank note where it says "In God We Trust." I can't touch 200 peso notes because they have a nun pictured on the obverse. ;)

Quote: Evenbob

It's called common sense, it's not a mental
block. Walking around all day believing in
something you can't see, hear, or feel and
can't be proved, seems like a waste of time
to an atheist. I have thought for a long time
that religion is like a big mental ward for a
lot of people. They never have to think
about anything complicated or troubling,
their religion has done it for them. They're
intellectually lazy.

Ha, chalk up common sense to another one of your meaningless words that have different definitions for different people because I find it the height of intellectual laziness to walk around all day seeing this world around you, hearing and feeling it as a living human being gifted with thought; and then believing against all reason and logic that everything is just an big cosmic accident with no beginning, meaning, or purpose. What else in your experience of life has just popped into being without reason or purpose? What other things do you know of that did not have a beginning somewhere or from something? Yet somehow in an atheist's mind then suspend common sense and for a variety of motivations choose not to believe in God.

Evenbob you can give up on that old line about believers finding easy answers. That was covered earlier in this thread and in another one. Believing in God leads to wonder and the desire to explore the complex and amazing universe God has created. Many of the first and greatest scientists were men and women of great faith.

Quote: FrGamble

What other things do you know of that did not have a beginning somewhere or from something? .

Who knows where anything we perceive really
begins. Just because it's new to us, doesn't
mean it began with us. You build a house
from scratch. Is that a beginning? Every piece
of material in the house comes from somewhere,
so it's just a continuing on for them. You just
take them and rearrange them in a different
order. Two people getting married isn't a
beginning, it's them continuing on as a couple
instead of apart. That's all anything can do,
just continue on. Including the universe.

Religious people reverse engineer everything,
they can't accept anything for what it was. They
think they see things, so they make up theories
and get other people to agree with them, and there
you have it, theory becomes fact.

Not so fast there, quick draw..

Evenbob I fervently pray that you would just once take your thoughts or ideas out to their logical conclusion. In the case of moral relativism it would lead you to realize the horror of your position. In the case of rejecting any word as meaningless that has different definitions to different people you render meaningless communication and show no intellectual rigor. However, in this case if you continued to ask yourself the question "is this a beginning?" you would eventually find yourself at the beginning of all things, the unmoved mover, the first cause, the non-contingent being, the fundamental starting point for all that is, or I like to say God.

Quote: FrGamble

" you would eventually find yourself at the beginning of all things, .

There you go again with assumptions. You
think you see beginnings, so you think there
must be an original beginning where it all
started. You can't wrap your mind around the
thought that the universe has always been
here in one form or another and always will
be. If you start to see things as continuations
instead of beginnings and ends, your concept
of the universe changes also. And you can
almost grasp your part in all of it.

I do see things as continuations, but they continue from something before them. It is not an assumption to say that things have a beginning, it is a fact. Everything that has begun to exist had a beginning, that is just a simple truth. You might try to wrap your mind around the idea that the universe is eternal and has no beginning, but I think that is just wishful thinking and intellectually lazy. Does the world around us point to or lead you to that radical idea? No, everything you see around you is a continuation of something that began before it leading back to an ultimate beginning. Call it reverse engineering if you want; at least it has some basis in reality and is not made up silly talk.

Quote: FrGamble

It is not an assumption to say that things have a beginning, it is a fact..

It's not a fact, it's an assumption. If it's a fact,
prove it. Where were you before you were
born? The thing we call the soul had to be
somewhere, it didn't come out of nothing.
Nothing comes out of nothing. What is a
fact is, we know nothing in the universe can
be destroyed, only converted into something
else. The universe is in a constant state of
movement and evolution. And we're a part of it.

In fact, we're the center of it. If the universe is
infinite in all directions, then any spot you pick
is the center. Admit it, doesn't it feel that way
sometimes, that you're the center of the universe
and it's always been here and always will be.
In saecula saeculorum, forever and ever, world without end.

In Saecula Saeculorum appears 19 times in the NT,
mostly in Revelation. Don't you find that odd, I
certainly do.

Are you really so obtuse as to deny the fact that everything we know, including ourselves (and yes even our souls), have a beginning? If nothing can come from nothing then where did everything come from? If the universe has always existed wouldn't that disprove your supposed fact, because if the universe does exist then something came from nothing? The only way you can hold to the idea that nothing comes out of nothing is to posit a ultimate beginning from a being or force that uniquely is exempt from this fact. A spiritual being or force that has existence in itself, as its very nature, with the power to create all things.

I think you are getting confused regarding something that we do agree on and that is that life will go on forever and ever. In saecula saeculorum means "ages or ages" aka forever. The world without end part of the Glory Be prayer you are referring to means God's kingdom, the new heavens and earth referred to in Revelation which will never end.

Since we agree on the idea about the forever and ever part, let's stay focused on the beginning. You believe against all the evidence that the universe is eternal and has always existed. You ignore that this breaks the one fact you mentioned, namely that nothing comes out of nothing. It also has no basis in reality or in our lived experience. I am saying that the universe does have a beginning, out of nothing in fact. The only way to hold this position is to recognize the logical necessity (read proof) that for there to be anything at all something which has its existence intrinsically or a non-contingent being or force had to create all that exists.

Quote: FrGamble

If nothing can come from nothing then where did everything come from? .

It's always been here, always existed. Forever and
ever, universe without end. It's the conclusion you
come to if left alone, if you're not bothered by idle
speculation of those with agenda's to follow. It's
the mystery that we are right in the middle of, that
can't be expressed in words. It's why people in
the East spend a lifetime in meditation. You think
you see beginnings, so you assume everything has
one. I don't get why thinking the universe
is eternal is so hard to believe. To me, it's obvious.
Once you accept it, the world becomes easy to
understand.