"Cult of Mary"

December 4th, 2014 at 11:58:43 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 106
Posts: 10696
Quote: FrGamble
In an article for Psychology Today he summarizes some of the statistics here is an excerpt:


So the Churches stance is it's no different
when a 'man of god' takes advantage of his
position with an underage child than it
is when a regular person does it? The
population shouldn't hold the clergy to
any higher standard than the wine-o pervert
that hangs out around schoolyards?

I always knew that, thanks for having the guts
to admit it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 4th, 2014 at 1:50:08 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4980
Bob, maybe you can explain how you arrived at that conclusion because that is not the Church's stance at all.

The Church's stance, as well as that of any thinking individual would be that we should hold everyone to the highest standard - there should never be child abuse at all no matter who you are. Why can't we hold priests and all men and women to the same standard - NO child abuse.
December 4th, 2014 at 2:58:40 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 106
Posts: 10696
Quote: FrGamble
Bob, maybe you can explain how you arrived at that conclusion because that is not the Church's stance at all.
.


Easily. Your only answer was pedophilia happened
at no greater rate among priests than it did in the
general population. Like your attitude is, so what,
we may be priests, but we're no better at keeping
our deviant desires in check than anybody else,
quit holding us to a higher standard.

I myself don't not hold you to a higher standard, I
expect that kind of behavior because many priests
go into the profession because of what they can
get away with. But for some reason, the general
population does hold the clergy to a higher standard,
which is obviously misplaced.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 4th, 2014 at 5:49:34 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 3
Posts: 814
Quote: FrGamble
The Church is much harder on clergy than anyone else, but yes we are in the business of forgiveness.

As far as the priest pedophile post I recommend reading either Phillip Jenkins from Penn State who wrote, "Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis." He is a non-Catholic who writes a very fair and objective book about the subject.
Also Dr. Thomas Plate from Stanford has written a book entitled: "Sin against the Innocents: Sexual Abuse by Priests and the Role of the Catholic Church"

In an article for Psychology Today he summarizes some of the statistics here is an excerpt:



See the full article at: Six Important Points regarding Clergy sexual abuse


The statistic quoted is meaningless as many of the people on this site will immediately recognize. Basically it says 4% of priest sexually victimized minors and 15% of males were victimized as children. These two percentages only tie together if the errant priests only victimized 1 child each. This is highly unlikely to be the case.
"There is no sin but ignorance" Christopher Marlow
December 4th, 2014 at 5:57:55 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4980
Sometimes I wrestle with answering you when you are so clearly antagonistic and rude, but I can't in good conscience allow such hurtful and unfair comments go unanswered.

Quote: Evenbob
Easily. Your only answer was pedophilia happened
at no greater rate among priests than it did in the
general population.


That was not my only answer. In fact you obviously did not read the article that I only quoted an excerpt from. I also gave recommendations for some very good and fair books you should read. These things tend to be complicated and I worry you are only using them to score zingers or points.

Quote:

Like your attitude is, so what,
we may be priests, but we're no better at keeping
our deviant desires in check than anybody else,
quit holding us to a higher standard.


Even if the above was my only answer can you see what a illogical jump you are making? A proven statistic leads to you building a straw man that does not follow from the fact. You are putting your unfounded ideas as words in my mouth and I would like to vomit them back upon you. As I said in my recent post we all need to hold everybody to the highest standard, there is no excuse for you if you were a pedophile just because you aren't a priest. Let's not worry about double standards, let's raise the bar for everyone.

Quote:
I myself don't not hold you to a higher standard, I
expect that kind of behavior because many priests
go into the profession because of what they can
get away with.


Unworthy of a response, maybe worthy of a suspension.

Quote:
But for some reason, the general
population does hold the clergy to a higher standard,
which is obviously misplaced.


How does it follow that the higher standard is "obviously misplaced"? You agreed to early on in your rambling crazy argument that priests do indeed have a lower rate of abuse than the general population. Did you forget the stat which launched you on this diatribe from only a few sentences ago?
December 4th, 2014 at 6:18:35 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 106
Posts: 10696
Quote: FrGamble
As I said in my recent post we all need to hold everybody to the highest standard, there is no excuse for you if you were a pedophile just because you aren't a priest. Let's not worry about double standards, let's raise the bar for everyone.


So priests need to be held to the same standard
as everybody else, then. They should not be held
to a higher moral standard, is that what you're
saying? Because that's what the public does, they
have priests on a moral pedestal.

Is this the Churches stance, people expect too much
from them, time to notch that down a peg or two?
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 4th, 2014 at 6:28:42 PM permalink
Face
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3089
Quote: EvenBob
I myself don't not hold you to a higher standard, I
expect that kind of behavior because many priests
go into the profession because of what they can
get away with.


Quote: FrGamble

Unworthy of a response, maybe worthy of a suspension.


There will always be men who strive for power for the express purpose to abuse that power. We see it with cops, with judges, with high school principals, with counselors. That includes the clergy. As it is human nature (or humanity's flaw), I've no doubt there are Fathers who have indeed risen to power for no other reason than to abuse it.

But I would also expect that to be the exception, and agree that the use of "many" is unwarranted.

I'd issue a yellow card, but soccer is stupid and no one would know what I'm talking about. So I'll just say "carry on". There's a good 3 or 4 highly active religion threads, they've been going on for months, and not a single suspension or s$%^storm has erupted.

Well done.

As you were.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 4th, 2014 at 6:34:52 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 106
Posts: 10696
Quote: Face
There will always be men who strive for power for the express purpose to abuse that power. We see it with cops, with judges, with high school principals, with counselors. That includes the clergy. .


Some men enter Boy Scout leadership with the
intent of molesting young boys. Anyplace
underage boys gather, there will be men
who get into a profession to prey on them.
Like high school gym teachers and coaches.

There is no denying it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 4th, 2014 at 6:43:51 PM permalink
Face
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3089
Quote: Evenbob

There is no denying it.


And I won't deny it. I even went so far as to say I absolutely know it happens. I guarantee it, I would bet my life on it. Boy Scouts, 4H, Bible camp, band camp, retirement homes, ICU wards, psych hospitals... wherever there exists someone vulnerable, there exists someone to prey upon them.

I simply argue with your use of "many", as it implies a majority, which I believe to be completely false.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 4th, 2014 at 7:33:56 PM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 49
Posts: 426
Quote: EvenBob

I myself don't not hold you to a higher standard, I
expect that kind of behavior because many priests
go into the profession because of what they can
get away with.


Quote: FrGamble


Unworthy of a response, maybe worthy of a suspension.



How is this worthy of a suspension? or even a yellow card