And Now for Something Completely Different...

Quote: Ayecarumba

Are you also saying that Mother Teresa could not do evil because her random genetic coding was irresistable?

You need to define evil before that question can be answered. Although few would disagree that Mother Teresa accomplished great good she made many enemies along the way of the other nuns. Many of them claim that she was an autocratic ruler of her order who was very quick with punishment to those who didn't obey.

I am so confused. First I read this:

Quote: Evenbob

Not at all, how could you think that.
We have to be taught morality, it
doesn't exist on its own. If we all
have a moral compass, explain Hitler
and Stalin and mass murderers and
cannibals and slavery and sexual
abuse of kids and organized crime
and and and and...

This post seems to assume that everyone reading it will have the same visceral disgust of Hitler, Stalin, mass murderers, sexual abuse, etc. Yet if we don't have an innate moral sense that says these things are bad then why are you using them as examples? You see to make your point you need the above examples to be objectively evil, which they are. Then you can argue their existence is proof we don't all have a moral compass. Yet if we all don't have a moral compass you can't very well claim these atrocities are evil for everyone, and around we go in your very circular argument.

Quote: Evenbob

It's random, just
like everything else. Some peoples genes
make them into serial killers, some into
Mother Teresa. There is no universal moral
compass that points us anywhere.

So now you make it clear that there is no universal moral compass that points us anywhere. Then why in the above post did you assume that everyone universally knows that cannibals and slavery are bad? Even more frightening than your inconsistency is the idea that there is no moral difference between a serial killer and Mother Teresa, it's all in the genes. You are later called out on this and change your thoughts again.

Quote: Evenbob

If your
genes suggest you do the 'right' thing, it's very
easy to resist the urge. It's also easy to give into
the urge to do bad things.

So now we are back to assuming there is right things and bad things that everyone knows so that even if your genes suggest something that is bad you can resist it.

You've got a problem. We all want to acknowledge that Hitler did things that were objectively and universally evil, yet you don't want to acknowledge this because it takes the onus of determining what is right or wrong out of the hands of the individual and his/her unique circumstances. If we can't just make up what is right or wrong it means that we are subject to moral laws that are not of our making and are ingrained in us.

You're eventually going to have to come to this position Bob so you might as well prepare a way to keep your atheism alive. Lucky for you there are such theories. For example, maybe these objective moral norms have developed over time through evolution as a way to protect our species. Or you can go the gene theory route, but you have already seen the trouble with that as it takes away all morality through a genetic predeterminism. I'd like to suggest these moral norms come from our creator God who has made us in His image and likeness.

Quote: FrGamble

a way to keep your atheism alive. .

Atheism isn't a 'thing', I keep telling you this. It
doesn't come and go, it doesn't live or die. It's
not even a concept, it's the opposite of a concept.

It's the LACK of a thing, a belief in god. I don't go
to meetings, I don't sit around all day wondering
if god exists, I don't keep looking for signs, I
don't scour the Bible looking for clues, I don't
do anything, there's nothing to do. YOUR
belief is YOURS, it has nothing to do with me.

I know with all my heart that god does not exist.
He cannot exist. It puzzles me that people are told
to love god. How do you love a vague idea? You
only love things that are lovable. The religious
concept of god is about as lovable as a dead dandelion.
You could probably respect god if he existed, but
love him? Have you really read the Bible or the Koran?

Lovable he ain't.

Quote: Evenbob

Atheism isn't a 'thing', I keep telling you this. It
doesn't come and go, it doesn't live or die. It's
not even a concept, it's the opposite of a concept.

It's the LACK of a thing, a belief in god.

Is this why you have insisted a few times that you cannot prove a negative? If Atheism is not a thing, a concept, or a belief I'm still having trouble understanding how to address it.

Quote:

I don't go to meetings, I don't sit around all day wondering
if god exists, I don't keep looking for signs, I
don't scour the Bible looking for clues, I don't
do anything, there's nothing to do. YOUR
belief is YOURS, it has nothing to do with me.

I think I understand bro and I don't want to pester you and we've already established I'm not here to try and convert anyone. Since I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it or researching it, etc. However, thinking about God or the beginnings of life or why we are here is on a different level than monsters. I think we should spend some serious time thinking about, exploring, and wondering about this BIG questions. *WARNING* The more time you think about the beginnings of the universe or life the more it comes clear that it is a mind boggling mystery that points to something far beyond us, which may be why you aren't thinking too much about it.

Quote:

I know with all my heart that god does not exist.
He cannot exist.

This is perhaps the most interesting thing I have read in a long time. Usually the seat of knowledge is the mind and the source of belief is our heart. We would usually say something like, "I know with all my mind..." or "I believe with all my heart..." Instead you have switched it up and in doing so perhaps revealed a fundamental truth about this issue. Your knowledge that God does not exist really comes from a deep seated passion or desire that He not exist. There is something in you that cannot fathom or stomach the idea of a God. This leads to an almost religious conviction - He cannot exist! I imagine I am the same way, I get nauseated thinking about the "non-thing" of atheism. I too know with all my heart that there is a God. Let's own the fact that both our heart and mind are involved in this debate. This can help others to see their decision on this matter is often based on things that go much deeper than modern cosmology, logic, history, anthropology, and philosophy - all which show us there is a God ;)

Quote: Evenbob

Your genes don't 'make' you do anything. They
suggest certain decisions, not force them on you.
Every genius is not successful, far from it. Every
math whiz doesn't have a career in math. If your
genes suggest you do the 'right' thing, it's very
easy to resist the urge. It's also easy to give into
the urge to do bad things.

So what makes the difference? How is it that some do and some don't?

Quote: FrGamble

You've got a problem. We all want to acknowledge that Hitler did things that were objectively and universally evil, yet you don't want to acknowledge this because it takes the onus of determining what is right or wrong out of the hands of the individual and his/her unique circumstances. If we can't just make up what is right or wrong it means that we are subject to moral laws that are not of our making and are ingrained in us.

This is interesting, and oddly (maybe not surprisingly), I've often thought of Hitler when doing my own introspection.

Imagine, if you will, that Hitler was successful. Russia falls, Europe falls, and the 40's, 50's, and 60's is nothing but occupation, conquering, and purging of all ze Jews unt ze gays unt ze mentally retarded. My grandma never makes it out of Germany and is imcorporated. My Dad is born in Germany and is raised under this rule. Then along comes me in '80 and here I am, in Das Fajerland.

Decades of propaganda, decades of influence, now I arrive in this world he, Hitler, created. Wouldn't I of course be taught of the battle he fought for me? Wouldn't I be taught that things available for me was because of his sacrifice, his leadership, his effort? Wouldn't I be taught that the opportunities available were because of ze fight against ze jews unt ze gays unt the mentally retarded? Methinks it is easy to say that in the bizarro world, Hitler could be looked at as very good indeed.

I think I recall a time when the killing of animals was universally "bad". The lion laid with the sheep, the wolf laid with the lamb, and everything was flowers. Well, maybe not "flowers", because we all had to eat all those. But things changed, and eventually it was considered OK to kill other things for sustenance. What was "bad" changed, and then became "good".

Does God have a monopoly on these decisions? Is it only He who can judge good from bad?

Quote: Ayecarumba

So what makes the difference? How is it that some do and some don't?

Another interesting question.

We often mention "nature or nuture" during these discussions. I think that is wrong. I think it always a case of "nature AND nurture".

I completely agree that genetics are a major influence. The evidence is everywhere. Through stories I know my Pops was a wild child. Having lived my own childhood, I can say it's much the same. And watching my son grow, he is his father's son. That's not nurture. I was a fireball from age 5 through 25, at which point I mellowed drastically. I didn't have my son until I was 28. He doesn't know that side of me, he's never experienced it. But he's following in the same footsteps. Why?

Nature. I'm genetically disposed towards aggression and high energy, as is he. Maybe it's just high testosterone levels, maybe it's just a hyped up metabolism. I dunno the exact biological process, but whatever it is, it's there. If it were a little lower, maybe he'd be more of a pacifist. Maybe he'd forsake football for tuba. Maybe he'd ditch hunting for painting, I dunno. If it were higher, he'd seek out more aggression. Maybe football's not enough, maybe he wants MMA. Crank it up high enough, and maybe he'd want to kill someone.

But that's nature. Nature is what drives, nurture is what guides. Nature is the foot on the pedal, nurture is the hands on the wheel. If you coupled my high energy and aggression with abuse, god knows I'd be a terror. When my aggression takes me to the bad spot, it's nurture that points it where to go. Since my nurturing was full of compassion, my aggression is often directed inwards. Maybe I drive faster, maybe I beat myself up more, maybe I do drugs. Whatever it is it will be inward, because I was taught not to send it outward.

I think that's the difference. Like EB said, genes don't "make you do something". But they do influence it. Lord knows I often have the desire to punch someone straight in the face. Part of that desire is my nature, my genes. But the reason I don't is my nurture, the way I was raised.

Nothing, no amount of propaganda, no matter how long someone has influence over history and how we learn it, no matter what you do you would never be able to make the holocaust a good thing. It would be like trying to imagine a society where rape and the torture of children was made legal or even encouraged it would be doomed to be rejected. That is not to say that with Herculean propaganda and effort you couldn't get many people to ignore their innate human moral compass that universally points to the fact that these things are wrong, but only for awhile. In fact Germany did just that, but it is always teetering on a cliff or waiting just for a spark to ignite and blow the whole thing up. A prisoner yells just loud enough for the nearby town to hear and gets a few people to shake off the cobwebs are start to question what is going on and then Boom goes the dynamite and the whole thing unravels.

You mentioned genes earlier and how they are the engine and nurture is the steering wheel. Well these moral universal norms are the roads on which these cars travel. You can go over the guardrail, but it will end badly for you. You can travel off the roads for a while and convince others to do the same but you end up broken down and hopelessly lost.

Quote: FrGamble

I too know with all my heart that there is a God.

"He cannot exist. It puzzles me that people are told
to love god. How do you love a vague idea? You
only love things that are lovable. The religious
concept of god is about as lovable as a dead dandelion.
You could probably respect god if he existed, but
love him? Have you really read the Bible or the Koran?"

When people invent a god and say they
love him, I always say baloney. You don't
love something you can't even prove exists.
Just more guilt to heap on people and keep
them under the churches thumb.

Quote: FrGamble

Nothing, no amount of propaganda, no matter how long someone has influence over history and how we learn it, no matter what you do you would never be able to make the holocaust a good thing.

Are you so sure?

You have to sort of remove yourself from the situation. Right now, you're on the outside looking in. As you grew, you were instilled with this thought of Christ, and were taught His values. These values became your values. Now everything you look at is done through this sort of moral filter. It's hard to do.

How about this - let's forget the holocaust. It may be a stigma that not even I can punch through, so let's instead choose the easier example of the Pacific Theatre.

Japan was manipulating and battling for control of east Asia, in many ways no different than what we do today in the Middle East. They are a prosperous nation, they seek resources, they act in their best interest. Surely the support of such a rich and vibrant nation with customs and cultures dating back to well before Christ was noble in their search for resources, no? I mean, they're just trying to get by. They're acting in their best interest. I see no difference between them then and us now.

But their actions threatened that of Great Britain. Them obtaining these sources means there's none left for GB. So GB had to act in their best interest. They did so with our help. We cut ties, we dropped an embargo on their heads. We made it so the nation would suffocate under the weight of themselves

Who is right and who is wrong? Who is good and who is bad? Try and see if you can step outside yourself in this example.

Japan needs those resources. GB needs those resources. And when we embargo them, it forces a case of "fight or die".

Was the bombing of Pearl Harbor "evil"? Was it "bad"? It's easy for us to say "yes". Our people died, our resources were destroyed, many of our grandparents were shipped off, and many of them died.

But what of the Japanese side? They try to get resources, they get blocked. Now not only can't they get "more", they can't even get what they had. Another party is imposing a dire struggle unto them. Are they not allowed, or even obligated, to do what is right by themselves?

There was a time when everyone of Asian descent was pulled from their homes and thrown into camps. That's not Nazi Germany. That was what is regarded as America's Greatest Generation. The Greatest Generation threw innocent immigrants into camps, they systematically eliminated Japanese citizens from the islands they inhabited, almost completely using close quarter, guerrilla warfare tactics. Bayonets, grenades, flamethrowers. We burned them out. We cut them down. We eliminated every last one. And when the time came, we vaporized hundreds and thousands of them in the worst display of aggression and mass destruction ever seen on Earth. Those left lived in hell on Earth, where the very air made your skin bubble and peel until you died a horrible, agonizing death.

That's our Greatest Generation. That is their legacy. And most of us judge it as "good".

It seems that what is "good" and what is "bad" is, a the very least, influenced by where you're sitting. We tried to help our ally GB, and I bet we thought it was "good". But what of the Japanese? They defend themselves and land a crippling blow to their oppressors at Pearl harbor, I bet they thought that was "good". But what of us? Or how about us? We escaped a monarch full of persecution and established a utopia of freedom, prosperity, and hope. All very good, yes? Ah, but what about little Runs With Birds? He was enjoying his little village on the Atlantic coast when all these pale folks came with their rape and pillaging and disease. Surely, he didn't think it was all that good, right?

I maintain that "good" is taught. Your good was taught by Christ. Mine was taught by my mother. And each are so because they've been accepted by the majority. If Hitler had a little more Khan in him and conquered the entire Eastern hemisphere, I've no doubt that the people who grew up there would view the holocaust as an accomplishment, rather than a disgrace.