Ultra Crowded Airports

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October 19th, 2017 at 8:42:34 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 332
Posts: 11962
Quote: DRich
I'm sure the controller was just messing with me. He knew I was a student and would never allow me to get to close to a heavy jet. The truth is the top speed on my Cessna is slower than the landing speed of the jet. There was no way I could close the distance from when he told me to turn.


Just don't ever fly that thing in california. They seem to attract disaster.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
October 19th, 2017 at 9:33:45 AM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 18
Posts: 841
Quote: Nareed
Just don't ever fly that thing in california. They seem to attract disaster.


I really can't fly anymore as I don't think I will ever be able to pass the medical exam again.
October 19th, 2017 at 6:03:18 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 763
Posts: 9026
Las Vegas is going to face a similar question as San Diego before long. The government officials will convince everyone they need a new airport at Ivanpah.

Las Vegas has bigger airplanes than San Diego, with roughly 10-20 more passengers on average per flight, but roughly twice as many flights.

Las Vegas
Year Psgrs/flight trips
2002 103 149,075
2003 108 153,588
2004 109 175,835
2005 108 192,006
2006 108 199,919
2007 108 204,959
2008 108 192,401
2009 111 173,806
2010 115 164,554
2011 115 171,001
2012 117 168,994
2013 121 164,195
2014 124 163,813
2015 130 167,044
2016 131 172,707

San Diego
Year Psgrs/flight trips
2002 90 80,579
2003 88 85,852
2004 91 89,339
2006 92 94,602
2007 91 100,066
2008 93 96,908
2009 98 85,811
2010 104 81,319
2011 106 79,534
2012 107 80,601
2013 108 82,027
2014 111 83,674
2015 118 84,802
2016 120 85,696


The average plane into San Diego has 142 seats, which is pretty close to the most common plane, a Southwest 737-800 which has 143 seats. But the average number of passengers per flight is 120.

But San Diego gets very few widebodies outside of Tokyo, London,and Honolulu. The runway is perfectly capable of handling them, but they are used very seldom for domestic flights or Canadian and Mexican international flights.


Seats Daily Airline into San Diego
293 1.0 Hawaiian Airlines Inc.
283 1.0 British Airways Plc
186 1.0 Japan Air Lines Co. Ltd.
183 1.0 Air Canada rouge LP
...
175 25.0 American Airlines Inc.
167 20.5 Delta Air Lines Inc.
167 18.5 Alaska Airlines Inc.
163 24.1 United Air Lines Inc.
...
163 3.8 Spirit Air Lines
159 1.2 Allegiant Air
154 0.7 Westjet
153 2.9 Frontier Airlines Inc.
150 4.6 JetBlue Airways
144 5.3 Virgin America
138 0.8 Sun Country Airlines d/b/a MN Airlines
...
149 94.4 Southwest Airlines Co.
...
76 2.5 Horizon Air
76 10.2 Compass Airlines
75 1.0 Jazz Aviation LP
74 18.3 SkyWest Airlines Inc.
October 20th, 2017 at 8:45:36 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 50
Posts: 5266
All airports have to manage space and time.
An airliner generally needs a long runway with a distant turnoff to a taxiway. Most airlines then want a short taxi to their gate but its hard to accommodate every airline with a short taxi and nearby gate.

A smaller plane needs a mere fraction of the runway length and will usually use the very first turnoff and probably will taxi to an FBO or to Transient Parking/fuelPit/restaurant area.

In addition airports must schedule visual and vehicle inspections of runways for debris and rain/snow/ice accumulation.

The trouble is that airliners also leave a trail of wake vortex events behind them and this makes a runway unusable for more time than would otherwise elapse.

The worlds busiest airport each and every year is the Oskosh EAA Fly-In which uses volunteer controllers only and handles everything from military jets to low and slow open cockpit planes without radios. These explicit approach paths, no radio chatter and distinct missed approach paths make safe use of very dense airspace. So it shows that this can be done.
October 20th, 2017 at 9:33:03 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 332
Posts: 11962
I've a feeling double-deck runways won't be any help :)
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
October 20th, 2017 at 11:10:31 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 763
Posts: 9026
Quote: San Diego Union Tribune September 8, 2003 DAVE DOWNEY - Staff Writer

Airport officials say Lindbergh, which serves 15 million passengers annually, will run out of room by 2018.

Group pares airport sites to seven
SAN DIEGO -- Three San Diego County military bases, three sites outside the county and a proposed offshore floating platform may become the candidates for replacing cramped Lindbergh Field.

A working group completed ideas Monday for thinning a crowded field of 16 potential international-airport sites. If its suggestions are followed, seven finalists will be carried forward this fall for detailed analysis.



As far back as 1991, the idea of relocating the San Diego airport midway between the Tijuana airport and Brown field was proposed. Brown field would take the cargo jets, Tijuana airport would handle the Latin american and long range international flights like Tokyo, London, and Shanghai–Pudong, while the new runway would handle domestic US flights.


Tijuana Latin American destinations
Aeroméxico Guadalajara, Mexico City
Aeroméxico Connect León/El Bajío, Monterrey Seasonal: Durango (resumes December 15, 2017), Morelia (resumes December 15, 2017)
Calafia Airlines La Paz, Loreto
Interjet Aguascalientes (ends October 29, 2017), Culiacán, Guadalajara, León/El Bajío, Mexico City
VivaAerobus Culiacán (resumes November 1, 2017), Guadalajara, León/El Bajío (begins December 7, 2017), Mexico City, Monterrey
Volaris Acapulco, Aguascalientes, Cancún, Chihuahua, Ciudad Juárez, Ciudad Obregón, Colima, Culiacán, Durango, Guadalajara, Hermosillo, La Paz, León/El Bajío, Los Mochis, Mazatlán, Mexico City, Monterrey, Morelia, Oaxaca, Puebla, Puerto Vallarta, Querétaro, San José del Cabo, San Luis Potosí, Tepic, Toluca/Mexico City, Torreón/Gómez Palacio, Uruapan, Veracruz, Zacatecas
Volaris Costa Rica Guatemala City (begins November 19, 2017), Managua (begins November 20, 2017), San Salvador (begins November 20, 2017)



Cross Border Xpress is an enclosed pedestrian bridge for Tijuana Airport (TIJ) passengers crossing the U.S./Mexico border. After more than seven years of planning, design and permitting with government agencies from both sides of the border, CBX opened for business in December 2015. Spanning 390 feet, the CBX skywalk is the first ever to connect a facility in the U.S. directly into a foreign airport terminal. Cross Border Xpress serves the approximately 2.4 million passengers who already cross the border as part of their travels, helping them avoid unpredictable, often long delays at congested San Ysidro and Otay Mesa land ports of entry. Users of the bridge will be able to access the more than 30 destinations within Mexico that TIJ offers, many of which are not served by other Southern California airports. TIJ also has direct flights to Shanghai.

Within seven months of the facilities opening, 600,000 passengers had used the facility, with a single day record of 5,800 passengers.

The floating airport
October 21st, 2017 at 10:39:57 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 763
Posts: 9026
Average passengers per flight some major USA airports in 2016
137 JFK
131 LAS <=============
129 MIA
120 SAN <=============
118 MID
117 ATL
114 BWI
102 EWR
100 BOS
99 DFW
91 ORD
82 LGA
79 DCA

BACKUP INFORMATION
Las Vegas Legislation was signed on October 28, 2000, allowed Clark County to purchase land for a new commercial airport.The county was to buy 6,500 acres (2,600 ha) of land in the Ivanpah Valley from the Bureau of Land Management, about 30 miles (48 km) southwest of McCarran International Airport for the Ivanpah Airport. Clark County Department of Aviation hoped to start construction in 2010 and open the facility in 2017. These dates were based on McCarran reaching 90% (49.5 million passengers) of its projected capacity of 55 million passengers in 2017.

San Diego legislation to create new authority in 2001 With the demand for air travel expected to more than double to 35 million passengers in 2030, an airport capable of supporting that demand would contribute up to $8 billion to the regional economy. Failure to increase San Diego's regional airport capacity would result in 56,000 fewer jobs and up to $2.5 billion less in personal income by 2030.

================
Las Vegas Airport reached 47.4 million Air Passengers in 2016. So it might reach the trigger point of 49.5 million passengers by as early as 2018. So Ivanpah airport is supposed to begin construction

I need some opinions. Should construction begin in two years, or do we simply count on bigger and bigger planes and more airport offsite check ins to handle the crowds?
October 22nd, 2017 at 6:41:28 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 50
Posts: 5266
Quote: Pacomartin
I need some opinions. Should construction begin in two years, or do we simply count on bigger and bigger planes and more airport offsite check ins to handle the crowds?
Listen to the disgruntled taxpayers and airport area residents. Rather than have this cancerous growth of more runway area, more parking lots, more shuttle vehicles, more chemical spills, more insecticide, more this more that, stop sacrificing quality of life on the altar of growth.

Its time to take up the drawbridge. Just as cities often declare 'minimum lot sizes' so as to maintain land values, peace and quiet and limit demands upon public services, cities have to declare maximum growth limits to cancerous behemoths such as universities, airports, factories, etc. San Louis Obispo has the right bumper-sticker "I like the Slo-Life". Cities try to ban fast food outlets particular those that are part of a national chain so as to emphasize the local ownership, artisan skills and local purchasing as a quality of life issue.

Factory farmed French fries shipped to a small town is not desired; local farm to table lifestyles are a quality of life issue.
Hotels want their rooms filled by more and more tourists? Tell people in San Diego to stop building hotels and importing hordes of budget seekers.
San Diego residents want short drives to their destinations, plenty of parking, no lines at their nightclubs, no cover charges, no parking fees. All these taxes to build and maintain airports are a burden to taxpayers and to their lifestyle. Roads and airports are similar to a water tank: if you add more drainpipes at the bottom of the tank they will always be full. There is no such thing as "a reliever" road or reliever airport. Airport authorities always want only one thing: MORE.

I think we are becoming akin to Easter Island. Cut down all the trees to build scaffolding for the stone statues to appease the Gods but never think that its the loss of the trees that causes the wind and soil erosion that results in the poor harvests you are praying about.
October 22nd, 2017 at 7:06:06 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 763
Posts: 9026
Quote: Fleastiff
Airport authorities always want only one thing: MORE.


A few years ago the Mayor of London said pretty much the same thing. London has 5 airports connected to the city by rail. They have more air traffic than any other metropolitan area in the world. But pretty soon they are going to be surpassed by Dubai and Beijing. He more or less said rather than build a 6th airport and a high speed rail, just give up. Instead of half a dozen guys flying to Barcelona for a bachelor party weekend, tell them to stay in London and spend their money.

I was talking about San Diego County and Clark County since they both started initiatives around the same time for new airports. San Diego County has probably a million more people than Clark County, but obviously McCarran has over twice the airport traffic as San Diego' Airports.

I think the decision has been made about SAN airport that is binding for at least another 15 years. But LAS Vegas airport decision will come up inside of a year or two. The "smell the roses" argument holds a lot less weight for Vegas.

I have suggested that Vegas may be better off trying to get people to stay for one more day per trip.
October 22nd, 2017 at 7:39:46 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 332
Posts: 11962
In some cities, it seems about the only way to build a new airport would be for the air force to bomb the old one ;)
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
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