Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

What kind of person do you mean?

So am I wrong that the sacrifice has
nothing to do with the death of
Jesus, but that a perfect being
like god would lower himself and
come here at all. Isn't that the real
sacrifice that Xtians rarely talk about?

Quote:

If you knew just 1% of the academic criticism there is of Bart Ehrman

I'm sure it's 100%. It would have
to be, you can't still be a Xtian
and agree with most of his major
points. He's mocked and laughed
at and looked at as a fraud by the
ranks of the religion. So what. It
has nothing to with him speaking
from a lifetime of forensic investigation,
with him starting out as a dyed in
the wool evangelical believer.

Quote:

logic and truth are not about making things easier

In this case, it's all logic and reason and
truth. You can't prove god exists with
any of them. And you have no evidence.
AGAIN, why do you think 92% of the
members of top scientists on the UK
board are atheists. Because they haven't
thought it out, because they're ignoring
obvious evidence? They HAVE thought
it out, they have seen the total lack of
real evidence. They drew the only conclusion
they could.

Quote: Evenbob

So am I wrong that the sacrifice has
nothing to do with the death of
Jesus, but that a perfect being
like god would lower himself and
come here at all. Isn't that the real
sacrifice that Xtians rarely talk about?

Yes you are very wrong about that.

Quote:

He's mocked and laughed
at and looked at as a fraud by the
ranks of the religion. So what. It
has nothing to with him speaking
from a lifetime of forensic investigation,
with him starting out as a dyed in
the wool evangelical believer.

You would never mock or laugh at someone who has studied and researched and thought about these things as much as Ehrman has. It is simplistic and childish to mock people. No, he is refuted in the same intellectually serious way he approaches his studies. Again if you would take the time to listen and read his criticisms and critiques you would see this. Did you notice how you challenged me to name just one person who disagreed with him and clearly shows his errors and I think I gave you a dozen. I wonder could you name any NT scholar who actually agrees with Ehrman?

Quote:

They HAVE thought
it out, they have seen the total lack of
real evidence. They drew the only conclusion
they could.

And that conclusion is NOT that God does not exist. You know this. A lack of evidence cannot prove a conclusion. No thinking person, even less a top scientist would ever come to the conclusion that God does not exist. Can you imagine a scientist coming to a conclusion based on no data? Neither can I. 100% of those scientists you mention would never join you in your radical, illogical and ill thought out conception of atheism.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes you are very wrong about that.

No. I've seen Xtians break down weeping
over just that, the sacrifice god made by
becoming a lowly human. That's the
sacrifice, they believe, not the death.

Quote:

You would never mock or laugh

I've seen them do it on Xtian sites,
mock and deride him. Read some
of the negative Xtian reviews of his
books.

Quote: Evenbob

No. I've seen Xtians break down weeping
over just that, the sacrifice god made by
becoming a lowly human. That's the
sacrifice, they believe, not the death.

So the reason you think that way is because you have seen some Christians weeping over the beauty of the Incarnation? How many have you seen do this? Do you really think that based on this you can make declarations about what Christian theology teaches about the sacrifice of Jesus? It seems the only Christian ideas you have problems with are the ones you make up.

Quote:

I've seen them do it on Xtian sites,
mock and deride him. Read some
of the negative Xtian reviews of his
books.

Again because you have seen this you make a blanket statement that all Christians must do this, huh? What sites are you looking at? Because I have never seen anything other than serious rebuttals to Ehrman's serious mistakes. Are you still looking for just one NT scholar that would agree with Ehrman?

Quote:

If all
you claim about god is true,
his existence should be the most
obvious thing in every humans
life. But it's not at all.

So you do agree that you cannot come to a conclusion based on no evidence?

Also God's existence is one of the most obvious thing. That is why 99.9% of the human being throughout history have believed in God. Really when you look at creation and ask the fundamental question how did we or the universe get here eventually you arrive at God. We have talked about this and you still have no answer to the impossibility of an actual infinite regress. You know that we and the universe are contingent beings that do not have the reason for our existence in ourselves. You know the science and what it points to. You are so afraid of admitting the possibility for God's existence because you think the reality and world you've created for yourself will come crashing down.

Quote:

This only reinforces how pitiful and
ineffectual your god really is. And
how impossible his existence is.

Really Bob again these kind of comments are always signs you are angry and losing a debate. How is pointing out your statements and asking for clarity pitiful and what does any of your problem with me have to do with God's true existence.

Quote: FrGamble

because you have seen some Christians weeping over the beauty of the Incarnation?

Actually makes more sense than the
faux 'sacrifice' of Jesus dying for
36 hours and taking the express elevator
bodily to heaven. They're both myths,
neither happened.

Quote:

Ehrman's serious mistakes.

'Ehrman's mistakes', you made an
oxymoron.. Good one..

{q]So you do agree that you cannot come to a conclusion based on no evidence?

Quote: Evenbob

'Ehrman's mistakes', you made an
oxymoron.. Good one..

Wow you really like him don't you. Well there are worse people to be in love with that is for sure.

Quote:

No I don't agree. We all do it with
a myriad of subjects. It's only
the pointy headed intellectual
types that want to get picky and
choosy.

I will concede your point because I too like more practical knowledge and I certainly don't want to be a pointy headed intellectual type.

Quote:

Could you please point him out,
he's hiding again from me and
Bart Ehrman and Albert Einstein.
Too bad we aren't as smart as the
99% of the world you mentioned.

Ask yourself were the universe came from? If you follow the example of the two brilliant men you mentioned than you will have to recognize that a non-contingent first cause or unmoved mover is a real possibility.

Quote:

It's sooo simple. All you have to
do is prove your all powerful
god's existence and it's over. It
never bothers you that you can't
do that. Don't you find that odd?
I'm here god, show yourself. I
dare you..

It is so simple. Just think reasonably and objectively about this issue and you will see that your radical atheism makes no sense at all. I also promise you that if your continue to ask God to show Himself to you (minus the threat) He will reveal Himself to you. He does so in many, many ways every single day.

Quote: FrGamble

Wow you really like him don't you.

I like all the guys that started
out as gungho Xtians and saw
the light of how phony it is.
I like Dan Brown. I really like
my friend Ed who had to learn
Latin and most of his books
in seminary were written in
Latin. He was at the head of
his class in every subject all
the way thru. And he eventually so
hated the religion he campaigned
against it.
When I was in the Xtian group my
problem was original sin. I didn't
get it, and they got so sick of my
questions they told me to just
accept it and shut up. I still don't
get it, OS has to be the dumbest
and most flawed concept in any
religion. No real god would ever
do something so ridiculous.

Quote:

Ask yourself where the universe came from?

The universe has been here forever,
there is no question to ask. Think
about how comforting that is, you
will be here in one form or another
forever. You're in eternity right now.

Quote:

He will reveal Himself to you. He does so in many, many ways every single day.

And there is the desperation of the
god religions. Nobody can find
god, so it must be he reveals
himself in every green light and
good parking space you find at
Walmart. Xtians are so desperate
for any sign, they blame god when
their just dead dad's fave song
comes on the radio. You have
to feel sorry for them, they're
so out of touch with reality they
have to live life in fantasyland.

Quote: Evenbob

I still don't
get it,

That is painfully obvious, but just remember that the fact that you don't get it doesn't mean it isn't correct. If it helps just reflect on the tendency in you and all of us to struggle to live the lives we want to.

Quote:

The universe has been here forever,
there is no question to ask. Think
about how comforting that is, you
will be here in one form or another
forever. You're in eternity right now.

The only way you can posit that the universe has been here forever is to not ask any questions. You are going on feelings. You are comforted by that notion and scared about what it means that the universe was created. Feelings are not a good judge of truth. Just for the record I think being here in this broken world in one form or another bouncing back and forth between lives of various degrees of awfulness is a freaking nightmare!

Quote: FrGamble

That is painfully obvious

Odd, I'm not the only one who
has a problem with OS.

"The doctrine of "original sin" asserts that human nature was corrupted due to the first sin by Adam and Eve and, therefore, all humans are inherently sinful. It is a "theological construct," which means it isn't explicitly laid out in the Christian scriptures, but rather derives from quilting together various passages. The first formulation of the doctrine arises with Augustine around the late 4th Century AD. Jesus didn't believe this doctrine (it didn't even exist when he was alive) and neither did the early church.. No passage or verse in scripture speaks definitively to the concept of an inborn sin nature."

OS can't be explained because it's
a made up concept that doesn't
exist. You can explain it all day long
and it will never make sense because
it was designed not to.

Quote:

The only way you can posit that the universe has been here forever is to not ask any questions!

We arrive at it by asking the right
questions. You start off with a
false premise, that you see a creation
so there must be a creator. You never
ever start from square one, you always
start with the argument pointed in
the direction you want the decision
to go.This is the polar opposite of
how the scientific method works.
Your church mastered this way of
illogical thinking.

Quote: Evenbob

Odd, I'm not the only one who
has a problem with OS.

"The doctrine of "original sin" asserts that human nature was corrupted due to the first sin by Adam and Eve and, therefore, all humans are inherently sinful. It is a "theological construct," which means it isn't explicitly laid out in the Christian scriptures, but rather derives from quilting together various passages. The first formulation of the doctrine arises with Augustine around the late 4th Century AD. Jesus didn't believe this doctrine (it didn't even exist when he was alive) and neither did the early church.. No passage or verse in scripture speaks definitively to the concept of an inborn sin nature."

Where did you get that quote? Has the author never read Romans chapter 5: 12-21? I am amazed people can actually write these things and just as amazed that you seem to accept it without doing any research or reading about it.

Quote:

We arrive at it by asking the right
questions.

Okay now you are asking questions, that is a good start. Please tell me what questions you are asking to believe that the universe has always existed without a cause?

Quote:

You start off with a
false premise, that you see a creation
so there must be a creator.

You can't just say this without any reason to support your claim. If you see a chair do you think there must be a creator? When you are looking at your computer screen is it a false premise to think that someone must have created it? I don't see how you can say it is a false premise to see a creation and think there must be a creator. What other options are there? Why do you think it is false?

Quote:

This is the polar opposite of
how the scientific method works.
Your church mastered this way of
illogical thinking.

We did come up with the scientific method but I think you are attacking it here. You make observations and posit hypotheses that you test. Isn't a hypotheses something to give you a start and direction to see if you can prove the thought you had? I really think you need to take some time off to think about these things. You quote anonymously someone who obviously has not studied the OT or the NT, you make a claim without any support or reasoning behind it and now you forget how the scientific method works.

Really we need a break you are not really debating and I should get on with my mission trip. You are just making stuff up now and recycling old garbage. I think you are tired, let's take a break.