Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

Do you not know of the deplorable conditions of workers who were provided jobs by big companies and made into objects, worked in unsafe conditions, paid with scrip, and were kicked out of their houses if they lost their jobs or couldn't work?

You sure know run-on sentences and loaded questions.

What were the conditions of workers at factories? What alternatives existed? What was their standard of living compared to the alternatives? What other economic options were available? How many applicants per post available? How many workers quit and why?

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It was so bad that the Church encouraged workers to form unions to protect themselves and their families from those you say were trying to eliminate poverty!?!

I did not say anyone was trying to eliminate poverty. They were trying to make money. Eliminating poverty was a consequence of their actions.

You can read a lot about dreadful conditions in factories and factory towns in the early era of industrialization. In many ways the conditions were brutal. What you don't read much about was how more dreadful the alternatives were, or the previous conditions were. You don't hear it bandied about that Ford fought high turnover rates by raising wages, do you?

Quote: Dalex64

I think it is still a pretty simple question:

If God can create a perfect world, and perfect beings to live in that world, why didn't he?

I think that is the idea. Is a being with freedom more perfect than one without? Is a being who freely chooses to love God and others more perfect than one who is forced to or who has no other options? To create a perfect being might be a little more complicated than you think; it might involve growth, forgiveness, freedom of choice, learning, virtue, and a strong will.

And now I will digress.

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How can angels, beings that are surely in closer communion to god than we are, have the choice and ability to sin and betray him?

This is a really good question. My only answer is that pride commeth before the fall. If I knew the complete answer to this question it would help me answer in my own life why I do the things I know I should not and don't do the things I know I should. The power of selfish pride is the greatest force of evil there is. It makes us do utterly ridiculous things. In the case of the angels this fact is seen clearer than ever before. Here are awesome spiritual beings, glorious in power and intellect that towers over our own and everything else that God creates. God asks them to serve us and some of them, knowing full well it will lead to their destruction, still decide that it is better to rule in hell than serve in Heaven. How many of us know full well that this drug, this comment, this fight, this theft, etc. will lead to problems for us, but darn it we are in charge of our own life and I will do what I want! Its sad but the demons show us how powerful this temptation is in all of us.

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Given that some angels betrayed him, how can all of the angels that were not cast out now NOT have the ability to sin and betray him, and how can all those who were cast out not have the ability to repent? Why are their roles now static and unchangeable?

The reason their choices are unchangeable is that they being spiritual beings outside of time and space see the whole of God's plan. They, unlike us, make their choices will full knowledge of the consequences. Our lives unfold a bit at a time and we have the chance to change our lives until the moment of our deaths. The Angels lives unfold all at once at their creation and their choice to server or to not serve.

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How could a person who is hypothetically ignorant of all religions in the world choose between them, when all of them claim to answer the important questions, and all of them offer the same quality of philosophical evidence, and all of them share the same physical evidence and claim all of these things apply to their beliefs alone?

I think you would want to further examine the quality of philosophical evidence. After we rule out atheism because it has no philosophy and no physical evidence to support it, it becomes clear that there is a God. One question to start with in examining different religions is: What is the response to the problem of evil or suffering in the world? This is a question we all struggle with and the answers can be very revealing. Next you might want to ask what the teachings of that religion apply to our daily moral life. How would following this religion to its fullness change my life?

Quote: FrGamble

I think you would want to further examine the quality of philosophical evidence. After we rule out atheism because it has no philosophy and no physical evidence to support it, it becomes clear that there is a God. One question to start with in examining different religions is: What is the response to the problem of evil or suffering in the world? This is a question we all struggle with and the answers can be very revealing. Next you might want to ask what the teachings of that religion apply to our daily moral life. How would following this religion to its fullness change my life?

This person isn't trying to find a religious fit with himself, he is trying to find out which religion is based in truth.

Christianity and Hinduism provide equal answers to the problem of evil, daily moral life, how it can change your life. That is all about the lessons that the religion teaches.

It says nothing about which one is right about how the world was created, which gods are real, and what happens after we die.

Quote: FrGamble

What is the response to the problem of evil or suffering in the world? This is a question we all struggle with

No it's not. You say this all the time like
it's a major truth. Never in my life have I ever
heard somebody I know start a conversation
about evil.

You know why? It doesn't really exist. It's an
intellectual concept. Like god. Is a serial killer
'evil'? Mentally disturbed, dangerous, a problem
that needs attention, yes. Evil, no. Saying
something is evil is an opinion, not a fact. What's
evil to one person is good luck to another. I
won't list the examples, why bother. Evil is all about
how an event effects you personally, so it can't
be anything other than an opinion. It's just another
tactic of the Church to frighten and control people.
Another evil tactic, you could say..

Quote: FrGamble

To create a perfect being might be a little more complicated than you think; it might involve growth, forgiveness, freedom of choice, learning, virtue, and a strong will.

So, God's power and ability is not unlimited?

This isn't a trick question like can god make a rock heavier than he can lift.

So, god can create an angel, which can see the fullness of time and make all of their decisions all at once, but he can't make a perfect being that is incapable from sin from lack of desire to do so, or immune from temptation, which still has free will and can't see all of time all at once?

God can create Adam and Eve from nothing, but can't make them any better than he did?

Quote: Dalex64

God can create Adam and Eve from nothing, but can't make them any better than he did?

When you ask logical questions about a
fictitious figure, the answers can only be
only more outrageous and fanciful than
the fictitious figure itself. The best thing
for god people to do is, just say there is
a god and leave it at that. Don't explain
him, don't apologize for him, don't try
and figure him out. You just dig yourself
deeper and deeper into a hole, as FrG
is doing here.

God is a lie. When you expand on a lie, it
gets more and more outrageous until you
have be a little deranged to buy into any
of it.

Quote: Dalex64

This person isn't trying to find a religious fit with himself, he is trying to find out which religion is based in truth.

Good.

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Christianity and Hinduism provide equal answers to the problem of evil, daily moral life, how it can change your life. That is all about the lessons that the religion teaches.

I would examine this a little more and look for the differences there are some glaring ones.

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It says nothing about which one is right about how the world was created, which gods are real, and what happens after we die.

Actually Christianity is pretty clear who is right and which God is real and what happens after we die.

Quote: Dalex64

So, god can create an angel, which can see the fullness of time and make all of their decisions all at once, but he can't make a perfect being that is incapable from sin from lack of desire to do so, or immune from temptation, which still has free will and can't see all of time all at once?

God can create Adam and Eve from nothing, but can't make them any better than he did?

I think to answer this question you have to use your imagination a little bit and imagine how perfect we as human beings can be. Imagine us in perfect health and clear intellect able to grasp new concepts, ideas, and things as quick as possible. Imagine ourselves completely giving and loving the other person who in response completely loves us as well. Imagine everyone treated with equal dignity as we celebrate our differences. You seem to be judging God's creation by looking at the used floor model instead of the first new out of the box awesome human being we are created to be and what we are striving to become.

Quote: Evenbob

God is a lie.

Why do you say this?

Quote: Evenbob

Saying something is evil is an opinion, not a fact. What's
evil to one person is good luck to another. I
won't list the examples, why bother.

I know why you won't bother to list examples, because you will have to say that things like the Holocaust is evil to one group of people but good luck for the Germans. This is sick, ridiculous and offensive. If you can't call something like attempted genocide, or rape, or racial slavery evil in every and all cases regardless of someone's opinion than I think you should just say nothing. As they say it is better for someone to think you a fool than to say something and remove all doubt.