Original Sin?
March 10th, 2014 at 1:54:02 PM permalink | |
Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
Thousands of years ago humans lived in tribes. tribes dominated the individuals making them up. Individualism as an idea didn't really exist. This carries over for a very long time, even unto ancient Greece and Rome. The city and the Republic adn the Empire may replace the tribe, but the effect si the same. That's why it was reasonable, for example, to make responsibility and liability tribal as well. That's why it seems reasonable for a deity to promise vengeance unto the fourth generation, too, or to ascribe a sin to people who haven't even been born yet. Also why it was reasonable to punish a nation for the actions of one person. from an individualist perspective, this is entirely irrational. Western civilization has moved from tribalism to individualism. Some places mroe than others, of course. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
March 10th, 2014 at 2:03:13 PM permalink | |
Wizard Administrator Member since: Oct 23, 2012 Threads: 241 Posts: 6108 |
Then what is the difference between purgatory and hell? Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber |
March 10th, 2014 at 5:31:45 PM permalink | |
s2dbaker Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 13 Posts: 241 | Let's look at Genesis 3:14-15 shall we? He's not condemning a devil, He's condemning a talking serpent. If He were talking about a devil inside of a talking serpent then the bible would have made that clear. What it made perfectly clear was that God condemned a talking serpent putting the creature in the strata of livestock and wild animals, not angels and cherubim. Read your bible FrGamble. It's an amazing storybook and nothing more. |
March 10th, 2014 at 6:23:26 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | You read your Bible s2dbaker like a fundamentalist. I'll go there with you in a second, but first I want to point out there are other ways to read Scripture like there are other ways to read the newspaper. You hopefully don't read the opinion section the same way you read the news. There are many different genres contained in the Bible and one of the keys of proper interpretation is recognize a type of genre and read it as the inspired author intended. It is much more than a storybook, it's a library. When you come across the poetry of the psalms, the fable-like story in Tobit, the apocalyptic literature in Revelation, we want to read and understand them according to their unique genre. Anyway if we are going to take a literal read of Genesis 3:14 I think you don't have to say that the serpent is put in the strata of livestock or wild animals. The talking serpent is, "cursed above all livestock and all wild animals". Couldn't we read that to say that its curse is different because it is above the strata of livestock and wild animals, that it is in fact an different kind of "animal" all together? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
March 10th, 2014 at 6:35:50 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
As I mentioned earlier purgatory is temporary and getting us ready for heaven. Hell on the other hand is a permanent destination where one is eternally separated from God. I think you might be asking that if Jesus descended to hell and returned, bringing with him many just souls from all of history than wasn't hell more like purgatory, a temporary place that Christ freed many from? That is a good question and we might ask why didn't the Apostle's Creed say, "He descended into purgatory"? The Catechism address this question in paragraph 633
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
March 10th, 2014 at 7:10:46 PM permalink | |
s2dbaker Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 13 Posts: 241 | Poppycock! If you start adding words to the bible that aren't there then you're just rewriting the books as you want them to be, not as they are. What's to prevent you from putting all sorts of crazy ideas in there and then insisting that the bible didn't say it but it meant it. No, because the passage actually mentions livestock and animals meaning that is where the talkative serpent comes from and where it belongs. It is the talking serpent's egregious sin that makes it cursed above its peers. The bible says it that way for a reason and the reason is because that is exactly what the author meant. |
March 10th, 2014 at 8:11:29 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Ah ha! You make a good point. You are correct, to avoid us putting all sorts of crazy ideas in there we need more than just the knowledge that there are different genres in the Bible and different ways to interpret them. You also need to look at tradition, the very same tradition that brought the Bible into being. Remember that the Bible did not fall from the sky it was put together over time first by faithful Rabbis and Jewish scholars and then the New Testament by the Church (everybody was Catholic at that time). These sources and traditional ways of looking at what the text means can be very helpful in understanding the Scriptures. The Church who put the Bible together also claims some authority over its interpretation. Why not ask the ones who put the Bible together what it means, that should carry some weight I think. Finally, lets not forget about other texts in the Bible itself I mentioned already looking at Wisdom 2:24 or Revelation 12:9. It seems to me that the only way you can stop people from interpreting all kinds of poppycock from the Bible is to look at texts not just literally, but taking into consideration the genre, also what ancient Tradition says about a text, and how the Magisterium of the Church looks at it, and what other texts in the Bible might have to say. This is not to mention a look at the original Hebrew or Greek. All this together gives us a more authentic interpretation than what a fundamentalist would give us.
You seem very sure about this, have you checked with the other sources listed above? I also still think you are making a jump from the literal text to say that the serpent is without a doubt referred to as livestock or an animal, just because livestock and wild animals are mentioned in the verse. Could the mention of other animals be to contrast the talking serpent and his unique punishment over and above the regular animals? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
March 11th, 2014 at 12:24:53 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25685 |
You're testing yourself, padre. The universe is ignorant and oblivious to your plight. Our ego's run our lives, telling us were special in the eyes of god. But so is my dog and my cats and all the fishes in the ocean. Which means none of is special, we're all in the same boat. Why would you want it any other way. Seriously, why. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
March 11th, 2014 at 1:06:12 AM permalink | |
Wizard Administrator Member since: Oct 23, 2012 Threads: 241 Posts: 6108 |
Taking back to a priest?! I can just picture the purgatory meter spinning. Still hoping to get an answer to my last question. Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber |
March 11th, 2014 at 1:19:45 AM permalink | |
Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
No one in Purgatory will remain forever in that state or go to hell. If you go to purgatory you always end up in heaven eventually. |