Icons, what gives?

Quote: FrGamble

What would you say to someone who said that their personal idea of good is to hurt someone?

Are you talking about prosperity gospel?

Quote: Nareed

I don't think even a tiny iota of what the various Crusaders did was unchristian, but much of it was evil.

This makes no sense.

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Furthermore, is Jehovah so materialistic that it matters much to him who owns what piece of land? Or was that Jesus' idea? anyway, was there no possibility of peaceably negotiating with the Muslims for free access to the holy sites? I very much doubt Europe and Byzantium had nothing the Muslims wanted in return. And doesn't a part of the deity teach to love one's enemies and to turn the other cheek? Wouldn't a peaceful give and take with the Caliphate have been the "Christian" thing to do, as opposed to bloody war?

You tell me.

I don't know so much depends upon how you ask the question. YHWH does seem to care very much that people have a home and that they shouldn't be oppressed or simply allowed to live on that land always with the possibility of it being taken from them? Do you think the poor people who owned that land wanted protection for their homes? Was it possible to peaceably negotiate with the Muslims for access to the Holy Land? Do you think that would work with ISIS today? How's that working out for peace in the Holy Land now? Does turn the other cheek mean allow innocents to suffer and be killed? Does love your enemies mean allow them to walk all over you?

You tell me.

Quote: FrGamble

What would you say to someone who said that their personal idea of good is to hurt someone?

I would ask "Do you do God's work in the Inquisition?" or perhaps "Are you on a Crusade to liberate the Holy Land?" or maybe "What was your role in expelling the Jews from Spain?" or even "Do you aim to kill all the Huguenots?"

All such people had as an idea of good to hurt others in the name of doing the work of their god.

I think you'll find something in the Bible about sins and the casting of stones.

Quote: terapined

Are you talking about prosperity gospel?

No, I'm talking about how we ground your conception of good, which is not to hurt people, in something that goes beyond your personal feeling or conscience and is universally a good for everyone.

Quote: FrGamble

This makes no sense.

You may try to take the beam out of your eye and look again.

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YHWH does seem to care very much that people have a home and that they shouldn't be oppressed or simply allowed to live on that land always with the possibility of it being taken from them?

Because no Christian landlord has ever evicted a Christian tenant? No Christian armies have driven Christians off their homes? No Christians have ever sacked Christian city?

Or when that happens, all too often, were they temporarily non-Christian?

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Do you think the poor people who owned that land wanted protection for their homes?

As much as that Spain's Jews did or more?

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Was it possible to peaceably negotiate with the Muslims for access to the Holy Land? Do you think that would work with ISIS today?

While things in Europe were overall more brutal in everyday life than they are now, none of the many incarnations of the Caliphates were as bad as ISIS is these days. No worse than the Parthians or Sassanids before them, either. Certainly no worse than the Romans in Byzantium.

So, yes, I suppose it would have been possible to reach an understanding.

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How's that working out for peace in the Holy Land now?

Maybe if Christians had been tolerant of Muslims and had not insisted upon expelling them from their conquests because of what they were, things now would be a lot more relaxed in the Middle East.

And that's really BS. The current animosity is rooted largely in the colonialism of the late XIX Century, and the fall of the Ottoman Empire in WWI.

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Does turn the other cheek mean allow innocents to suffer and be killed? Does love your enemies mean allow them to walk all over you?

Does it mean "sack their cities, kill them all, rape the women and smash their children against their walls"?

Quote: FrGamble

You cut me deep, Bob, you cut me real deep just now.
.

My wife is a brainwashed Christian,
her whole family is. Their dad is
a Baptist minister, they know or
care nothing about any religion
outside of theirs. They believe every
bit of it without hesitation or question.
That's rather the point of brainwashing,
I believe.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know so much depends upon how you ask the question. YHWH does seem to care very much that people have a home and that they shouldn't be oppressed or simply allowed to live on that land always with the possibility of it being taken from them? Do you think the poor people who owned that land wanted protection for their homes?

You're actually justifying the Crusades. I knew
you would get around to it. There is not a
single doubt to me the Church would still be
behaving this way if they could get away with
it. Crusades and Inqusitions are what they're all
about, under the guise of peace and love.

Follow the money, it never lies. Or the land acquisition,
same thing.

Atheism does not mean you have no values.

Atheism does not mean your values must be different than the values taught by any particular religion.

Atheism does not mean your values are without foundation and float freely from situation to situation, depending on what makes someone feel good.

The values an atheist holds are learned from friends, family, society. Just the same as a person who believes in a god.

The only difference is, an atheist does not believe in a god.

Quote: Dalex64

The values an atheist holds are learned from friends, family, society. Just the same as a person who believes in a god.
The only difference is, an atheist does not believe in a god.

Exactly. In fact, it's been shown that
atheist parents do a better than Christian
parents in teaching their kids moral
values. As is demonstrated by the almost
zero number of atheists behind bars in
prison. Christians too often leave the work
of morals to the Church. expecting them
to teach it to their kids. As a result, our
jails are full to the brim with wonderful
'saved' Christians. God bless em..

Quote: Dalex64

Atheism does not mean you have no values.

Atheism does not mean your values must be different than the values taught by any particular religion.

Atheism does not mean your values are without foundation and float freely from situation to situation, depending on what makes someone feel good.

The values an atheist holds are learned from friends, family, society. Just the same as a person who believes in a god.

The only difference is, an atheist does not believe in a god.

Another difference is that an atheist's values are theirs and theirs alone. Without anything more universal than what they learned from friends, family, and society grounding their values they could be very different depending on the person and their experiences. It would seem that another atheist's view of what is good and bad would be just as valid since there is no moral system based on something greater than themselves.