Oregon law against pumping your own gas.

You make a lot of points there. I think we could enjoy a long debate on this issue over a beer.

The number of times I've pumped gas for a little old lady lately -- zero. The number of times I've been asked -- zero.

Regarding the increase in the cost per gallon because of this law, let's do some math. Let's assume that one attendant can handle six pumps. Any given pump will be used half the time. Let's say it takes five minutes per car. Finally, assume an average fill of 10 gallons of gas per visit.

So, each pump will dispense 60 gallons of gas per hour. That is 360 gallons per attendant per hour. Let's say the attendant makes $8/hr. Double that for levels of supervision. So the people have Oregon have to pay $16/hr for each 360 gallons of gas sold. That comes to 4.4 cents per gallon. So, your three cents figure is at least in the ballpark. I think it low but let's accept it for the sake of argument.

Given my 10 gallons per visit, that comes a 30-cent fee per fill-up.

Next let's assume that 1% of customers truly need help, and I think that is generous. That will come to 100*$0.30 = $30 spent by able-bodied people to benefit each elderly/disabled person to appears at the pumps. I think the public good would be better spent if you just gave these elderly and disabled people the $30 and let them fend for themselves at the pumps. A $5 tip should be plenty to get somebody to pump his/her gas. That leaves $25 wasted due to inefficiency.

Do I support menial-labor jobs that contribute nothing to society? No. Do I support free trade? Yes. There are still plenty of jobs out there. I agree the market basket has changed but there is no shortage of service-related work. Open up a janitorial company and see how many people with a valid Social Security number want to work for you. It will be nearly zero.

All through history there were laws that affected diet often due to the town's major industries. England had no fish days and no meat days depending on geography. And of course laws were often arbitrary and capricious such as the Connecticut Blue Law that prohibited a woman from baking or selling a Mince Pie but did not prohibit a man from buying one or transporting it or eating it. Sort of kept the price low for the man and the profit low for the woman.

Pumping gas was the ultimate in keep the bums employed laws. Ever have a unionized elevator operator in a building where it is all push button and doors open and close automatically? Or the Canadian Trade festival wherein college kids where hired to stand in the motorman's booth and pretend to operate the automatic trains that festival attendees were otherwise unwilling to ride?

Gas stations in Florida with sixteen pumps must install stand by generators so as to be available to serve fuel and food after a hurricane.
Of course there is talk of a law that will not allow hurricanes to damage teh phone lines that computers use to process the debit cards.

New Mexico has some weird law about It shall be Illegal to discuss legitimate tourquoise from Japanese manufactured machine tourquoise.

And Massachusetts has an "official" site of the Boston Tea Party that is well known not to be the "actual" site and there is no sign educating the public about the official site being known to be historically false.

Quote: Wizard

So, each pump will dispense 60 gallons of gas per hour. That is 360 gallons per attendant per hour. Let's say the attendant makes $8/hr. Double that for levels of supervision. So the people have Oregon have to pay $16/hr for each 360 gallons of gas sold. That comes to 4.4 cents per gallon. So, your three cents figure is at least in the ballpark. I think it low but let's accept it for the sake of argument.

As long as we are using this scenario, let's assume the gas installer also has other duties. I don't think there are gas stations that solely sell fuel, they have slurpies, and some even sell propane. Part of that salary is spent doing other duties of course. I haven't seen self serve propane around here, but up North I filled my own [propane] as there was only one person working a filling station and quicky mart. That is a task that it would be good to have someone know what they are doing. Sometimes price isn't the deciding factor, time is. Sometimes I just don't want to risk getting fuel on me.

What if, the manager did something besides manage? What few customers that would be willing to pay the extra few cents, the manager [if not the owner] could service and participate in the profit making process physically. Good will... hard to put a price or value on good will. These old fogies are incredibly loyal, and it seems there are so many places to buy fuel, that none of them have customers waiting out to the street the way it was during the "embargo".

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Do I support menial-labor jobs that contribute nothing to society? No.

To me, it is better to have cheap labor doing menial labor than supporting them either on state aid, in prison, or giving them debt forgiveness [at taxpayer expense] on their student loans, that was spent doing many things besides getting an education. I prefer the German method of young people knowing what they will do when they step out of high school. Either a trade or college, they know where they are going.

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Do I support free trade? Yes.

I support Fair trade. In the world court we have payed millions upon millions in fines. I recall Venezuela suing us for 300 million years ago do to our low sulfur requirement on diesel. Right now, Mexico and Canada are suing us for what they consider unfair trade. It isn't published but these trade agreements are costing the taxpayers that still exist billions. It's all where we decide as a nation to spend the money. It will get spent.

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Open up a janitorial company and see how many people with a valid Social Security number want to work for you. It will be nearly zero.

Funny, my first post here today was while I was keeping my feet up during the drying process. I had a janitorial guy come in and do the carpet, he had a helper.

If you have employees you know there are laws that require the employer to have proof of citizenship. There is a solution, no one has the guts to fix it politically.

The .03 I stated was from the 70's from SW Wash. , the difference between full service and self service, IIRC.

I haven't been there in decades. Some stations were .04 some probably .05. I guess I mixed them up a little and should have stayed with Oregon.

So, I found this.

Interestingly enough, Oregon's non self serve gas is cheaper than Nevada's or Washington's although pump your own is common.

Each state is going to get their pound of flesh. Unless Oregon changed, they also didn't have sales tax? So, Nevada you can pump your own fuel, and pay sales tax, as you can in Wa.

I don't dispute the gas pumper may have other duties when it is slow. At the busy station outside the Portland airport I doubt the guy did anything else. However, I recall stations in small towns last summer where it seemed I was pulling the pumper off something else he was occupied with when I arrived.

Basically, my position is let the free market decide whether or not to offer a service of pumping gas. There is a Shell station near my house that has attractive girls offering to do it for free. However, it being Vegas, a tip is expected, so I still do it myself. I think it looks unmanly for a full-grown man to have a cute gal pump his gas. It should be the other way around. My point being that this is a business decision the station owner made and so should be his right.

In this country I do not think there is a big unemployment problem. Yes, there is some transitional unemployment but show me somebody who has been unemployed for years and I'll show you somebody who doesn't truly want to work or is unemployable. We need to accept that the economy is a fluid thing and the demands of society change. If the situation were like in Spain with a high unemployment rate, then I probably would agree it would be better to make somebody do something, even if not really contributing anything to the society, than give them money for nothing. However, I just don't see that as the case here.

Regarding your chart, I would rather pay $3.26 in Nevada than $3.02 in Oregon. I assume that Nevada has a higher gas tax to make up for no income tax. Let me go further and say that I would support a huge gas tax, of like $5 a gallon, if the money were used to fix our crumbling infrastructure and pay down the debt. Meanwhile it would encourage less consumption, which is a good thing. In other words, I don't mind paying taxes but I do mind wasteful spending.

Let me rephrase that I support fair and free trade too.

Quote: Wizard

Let me go further and say that I would support a huge gas tax, of like $5 a gallon, if the money were used to fix our crumbling infrastructure and pay down the debt. Meanwhile it would encourage less consumption, which is a good thing. In other words, I don't mind paying taxes but I do mind wasteful spending.

Let me rephrase that I support fair and free trade too.

In order for such a tax to be fair and free, it would have to be voluntary. You could choose between stations selling gas at ~$3 per gallon, vs those selling it at ~$8. That way the six people who want to support a higher tax would so, while the rest of us would get it cheaper.

Quote: petroglyph

I have taken care of my own vehicles for a long time and have no problem pumping fuel. But to old geezers and invalids it is an arduous task.

It is my understanding that in self-serve states, the law states that if you have a handicap plate or placard, just honk, and someone will come out to pump, no extra charge.

Quote: petroglyph

Interestingly enough, Oregon's non self serve gas is cheaper than Nevada's or Washington's although pump your own is common.

I live in that other state with no self serve, New Jersey, and the gas is among the cheapest around. At least cheaper than over the NY or PA borders. For that reason, I voted that I'm on the fence. I mean, if we went to self-serve, just how much would the price come down?

Even though I'm in NJ, I almost always pump my own. Or at least I'm prepared to. I always step out of the car, pull out my wallet and get my credit card. If the guy isn't at my car by the time I have the card, I'll start pumping myself. Even though it is illegal, I've never gotten any sort of negative reaction from the gas jockey. In fact, I'm more likely to get a thank you, since he is generally overworked by running around, handling 6 or 8 cars at the same time.

Quote: Wizard

I don't dispute the gas pumper may have other duties when it is slow.

Some of those duties are probably handled in self serve states by the quick-mart guy when business is slow.

Quote: Wizard

However, I recall stations in small towns last summer where it seemed I was pulling the pumper off something else he was occupied with when I arrived.

When I was younger, I remember that often I'd pull up and a guy in the service bay with his head under a hood came running out to pump. Then he went back to work on that engine for a few minutes, came running out again to finish and get paid. Thinking back, it makes me wonder how cars ever got fixed in a timely manner.