Fifth Freedom flights

We've discussed this as a side topic in travel.

The fifth freedom (Freedoms of the air 1944) allows an airline to carry revenue traffic between foreign countries as a part of services connecting the airline's own country. Fifth freedom traffic rights were instrumental to the economic viability of long-haul flight for nearly 40 years. At this point advances in technology and increased passenger volume enabled the operation of more long non-stop flights. But there are still over 100 fifth freedom flights in the world.

The Japan-United States bilateral air transport agreement of 1952 has been viewed as being particularly contentious, because unlimited fifth freedom traffic rights have been granted to designated US air carriers serving destinations in Far East Asia beyond Japan.

I believe Qantas can operate fifth freedom flights directly from Dubai. As most people know, no commercial route has ever been economically feasible from London to Sydney. Singapore was the most common refueling stop for the last 35 years since flying from London to Singapore nonstop became commonplace. Today Qantas stops in Dubai from both Sydney and Melbourne on the way to London. So they are free to take passengers from Dubai to London and return. Qantas is not only duplicating routes offered by Emirates, but they both fly them in the A380.

The most controversial fifth freedom flight since it began two years ago has been the 3000 mile trip from Dubai to Milan followed by the 4000 mile trip from Milan to JFK. The layover is clearly not necessary to refuel, and is done solely to take the Milan to JFK traffic. Unlike most fifth freedom flights it has a significant share of the market. Delta, American, and Alitalia have roughly 800 daily seats between them each way, while Emirate is now flying a 500 seat A380. In addition only Emirates offers first class, and they have a significant share of the business class seats.

Now in this day Air France and KLM are merged, British Airways own Iberia Airlines, Etihad (Emirates competition in Dubai) owns 49% of Alitalia, and Delta owns a large share of Aeromexico.

Should we open up international air travel in the hope of helping consumers, but probably at a huge cost in national air lines? Should we open up the flights to the USA?

The cruise industry seems to survive even though no ships are flagged in the USA, and they face seemingly archaic laws. It is only possible to cruise from San Francisco to Alaska because the ships can spend the day in Victoria, British Columbia before returning to San Francisco. It is only possible to cruise from Los Angeles to Hawaii because the ships can spend the day in Ensenada Mexico before returning to Los Angeles. All these contortions are necessary even though there is no US industry to protect anymore.

Quote: Pacomartin

The cruise industry seems to survive even though no ships are flagged in the USA, and they face seemingly archaic laws..

some would say the cruise industry is a law unto itself. the flags of convenience don't cost them much and gives them economic clout in these vest-pocket jurisdictions where politicians are bought for a song. their Ports-o'call are usually desperate for cruise ship income and their crews are desperate for jobs at any wage or safety rating.

Rolf Harris, now doing hard time as a guest of Her Majesty and having zillions of well-heeled lawyers baying at his sixteen million pound fortune, got his start due to a shipping clerks ticket booking error He was traveling from Perth, australia to Hawaii, I believe, to catch the maiden voyage of the Oriana heading to San Francisco but for some reason he was required to disembark in Canada first. So he did a one-night gig in a Vancouver, Canada bar and it turned into sixteen weeks or something, so he knew he was off and running on a new career due to a shipping clerk who didn't know geography too well. Oriana publicity staff arranged to have vancouver school choir sing tie me Kangaroo down at dockside as rolf harris disembarked.

Quote: Pacomartin

Should we open up international air travel in the hope of helping consumers, but probably at a huge cost in national air lines? Should we open up the flights to the USA?

I'm in favor of letting airlines operate wherever they can find slots. If Interjet wants to fly passengers from, say, Vegas to Chicago, or United from Mex City to Acapulco, they should be able to do so.

While we're at it, satellite TV and radio, as well as internet content should flow freely between borders as well.

Quote: Nareed

I'm in favor of letting airlines operate wherever they can find slots. If Interjet wants to fly passengers from, say, Vegas to Chicago, or United from Mex City to Acapulco, they should be able to do so.

That is an extreme position. Countries are very unlikely to open their domestic routes to foreign carriers.

Quote: Nareed

While we're at it, satellite TV and radio, as well as internet content should flow freely between borders as well.

I agree with that comment.

Quote: Pacomartin

That is an extreme position. Countries are very unlikely to open their domestic routes to foreign carriers.

I know.

BTW, the examples were just examples. if United wants to fly passengers from Acapulco to Beijing via London and Sydney, that's fine too. Ditto if, say, Aeromexico wants to fly people from Buenos Aires to Paris via Rio de Janeiro and the Canary Islands.

There was a period of a few years when both Mexicana and Aeromexico were owned by a single government-owned company. Domestic prices were sky-high (no pun intended) and competition was minimal. One proposed solution as to let airlines from other countries compete in domestic routes. A travel gent told me the cheapest tickets for Mex to Acapulco went through Houston. Of course that made travel time longer than driving. But she told me she'd sold some Monterrey-Houston-Acapulco round trips.

In time the companies were split up and sold. And shortly after Interjet, Volaris and others came on the scene.

Quote: Nareed

I know.

I should have said that it is an "extreme position", but many analysts believe that such an "extreme position" would be very helpful (even in the USA). But they generally hold the position the flight should start in the foreign country. The example is given of a potential flight from Dubai to Philadelphia PA to San Jose CA (with permission to sell tickets on the SJC to PHL portion). You would serve a missing US link at the same time take underserved groups like Indians to Dubai where they can transfer to various cities in India.

The European Union, extends cabotage rights to airlines from all member countries. A French airline can operate a domestic route between two Italian cities; an Italian airline can do the reverse. Ryanair, an Irish low-cost airline, flies between Sweden and Croatia.

Needless to say there are people who benefit from all these arrangements, so the voice is never universal. Jetblue is Emirates partner in JFK, and they are happy to see Emirates flying the JFK Milan route, because they carry these people to other USA destinations.

Quote: April 8, 2013 Emirates Announces Trans-Atlantic Flight from JFK to Milan

http://www.nycaviation.com/2013/04/emirates-announces-first-trans-atlantic-flight-from-jfk-to-milan/#.Vb-pJXUVikp
Emirates on Monday announced their first trans-Atlantic route since 2007 , operating between New York (JFK) and Milan Malpensa (MXP) starting on October 1, 2013. The flight will be operated on the Boeing 777-300 ER aircraft, while the two daily flights to Dubai (DXB) will remain on the Airbus A380.

Emirates will be competing with several airlines on this direct route, which is currently served by American Airlines on a Boeing 767-300, Delta on a Boeing 767-400, and Alitalia on a Airbus A330. Emirates will be running the largest aircraft on this route holding 364 passengers, as well as the only aircraft with a first class cabin.

“Operating a trans-Atlantic route has been on our agenda for some time,” said Tim Clark, President, Emirates. “The route is currently underserved, particularly with a strong premium product offering – this is where we see a clear opening for Emirates,” added Clark.

So the existing three airlines are offering 90 business class seats and no first class seats. Along comes Emirates with 42 business seats and 8 first class seats. A lot of businessmen are excited about the increased competition. Then Emirates upgrades to an A380 on the route and offers 76 business class and 14 first class seats.

AA= 28-30 business class
Delta=40 business class
Alitalia=20 business class

Quote: Pacomartin

I should have said that it is an "extreme position",

Oh, my position is more "extreme" than that. I favor full open borders for people, services and goods, with only minimal, and reasonable, checks and exceptions.

Quote:

But they generally hold the position the flight should start in the foreign country.

That's a good place to start, for things like air travel.

Quote: Nareed

That's a good place to start, for things like air travel.

Norwegian is flying from three airports without first starting in Norway. Remember that Norway is not part of the EU. Here are their Dreamliner flights.

London (LGW) – Ft Lauderdale (FLL)
London (LGW) – Los Angeles (LAX)
London (LGW) – New York (JFK)
London (LGW) – Orlando (MCO)
Copenhagen (CPH) – Ft Lauderdale (FLL)
Copenhagen (CPH) – Los Angeles (LAX)
Copenhagen (CPH) – New York (JFK)
Copenhagen (CPH) – Orlando (MCO)
Stockholm (ARN) – Ft Lauderdale (FLL)
Stockholm (ARN) – Los Angeles (LAX)
Stockholm (ARN) – New York (JFK)
Stockholm (ARN) – Oakland (OAK)

Copenhagen (CPH) – Bangkok (BKK)
Stockholm (ARN) – Bangkok (BKK)