Yet another aviation thread.

Boeing studying use of larger engine in Boeing planes.

"...Boeing is studying the potential use of the larger CFM Leap-1A on a further stretch of the 737 MAX as part of efforts to counter the growing sales lead of the competing Airbus A321neo. The development, which would conceivably give Boeing a relatively quick-reaction, tactical response to the higher capacity Airbus, is believed to include adding at least four more seat rows to increase maximum capacity to around 190 passengers. According to a Reuters report ... "

Quote: Nareed

American is due to begin offering premium economy seats on international flights sometimes this year. These are not just more legroom seats, but rather a near-throwback to the old-style business class that existed in the 90s. Briefly, they'll be arrayed 2-3-2 on a Dreamliner, have more leg room, have foot rests (more on this later), have some personal storage space, power ports, individual screens, and better meals and service. This is something some European airlines already offer, but it's new to a US airline.

It might be just me but I don't see the appeal of premium economy. It's still economy and on a long haul flight it is painful. The only real difference is slightly more pitch and more of a recline. And ok seats might be an inch wider. Both times I have flown premium economy it's been on overnight flights and hasn't allowed me to get much more rest than in economy. I flew SIN-LHR on QANTAS and EWR-LHR on BA. Qantas much better but I still wouldn't go premium economy again.

Quote: Nareed

As I've said, the problem with air travel is that business and first classes became more luxurious (business in fact ahs replaced first on some airlines on long haul routes) and more expensive, while economy became more Spartan and less expensive. A middle ground has been needed for some time. The common economy plus with a regular economy seat and more leg room was a good idea, but as I've also said before, it fell far short for the price.

I wouldn't say business class is particularly luxurious. It's more just about providing extra room and a seat that converts to a flat bed to allow the passenger to sleep and reach their destination refreshed. Yes the food is better but it's nothing spectacular and the wines are also nothing special. I've seen $10 bottles served in business which (in Australia at least) are basically only a small step above the cheapest wine you will find at a typical bar.

First class is where you actually begin to get a luxury product. The space might be only slightly larger than in business but the food, drinks and service are what sets it apart. When you can eat a serving of caviar washed down with a few glasses of Krug you know you are being well looked after! :D

Quote: Nareed

Since airlines are not about to bring back meals on domestic flights and some international flights (some planes even lack the galley equipment and space for it), and since leg room will get smaller, and since people keep looking for lower fares, one thing might help: foot rests.

This is where Australians are actually spoiled on domestic flights. On our two full service carriers (Qantas and Virgin Australia) you will always get some form of food included. Non alcoholic drinks are also free and at certain times of day Qantas will give you alcohol as well. And that's in economy. Also get check in baggage for free.

It's only our two low cost carriers (Jetstar & Tiger) where you have to pay for everything.

Quote: Aussie

I wouldn't say business class is particularly luxurious. It's more just about providing extra room and a seat that converts to a flat bed to allow the passenger to sleep and reach their destination refreshed. Yes the food is better but it's nothing spectacular and the wines are also nothing special. I've seen $10 bottles served in business which (in Australia at least) are basically only a small step above the cheapest wine you will find at a typical bar.

First class is where you actually begin to get a luxury product. The space might be only slightly larger than in business but the food, drinks and service are what sets it apart. When you can eat a serving of caviar washed down with a few glasses of Krug you know you are being well looked after! :D

But what are you paying compared to a full service fine dining restaurant and a room in a luxury hotel in a major urban area?

I realise that of course you are paying much more than for those two products individually but it's not really a good comparison since the primary product you are purchasing is transportation from A to B. You're just paying extra for those things to also be included as well as the much better comfort. That said, on a long haul flight in first class you could easily consume products additional to what is offered in economy which would retail for more than $1k.

Quote: Aussie

It might be just me but I don't see the appeal of premium economy.

I kind of do.

Having flown domestically with Interjet, Viva, Volaris and Aeromexico, I concluded the best feature of Interjet's is the legroom. BTW, they now advertise it as "86 cm. between rows." @2.5 cm. per inch~34-inch pitch. That's not bad at all for a single-class cabin.

That said, when using my money I wouldn't pay much of a premium for that kind of legroom alone.

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I wouldn't say business class is particularly luxurious.

I'm a big fan of applying Relativity outside of physics :) Compared to economy, long-haul business class is positively sybaritic. The bed alone is a HUGE improvement over economy in flights where you want to sleep.

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Yes the food is better but it's nothing spectacular and the wines are also nothing special.

Sure. But the service is more personal, the food comes in plates, there is complimentary wine (ok, included in the price), etc.

Quote:

First class is where you actually begin to get a luxury product. The space might be only slightly larger than in business but the food, drinks and service are what sets it apart. When you can eat a serving of caviar washed down with a few glasses of Krug you know you are being well looked after! :D

Maybe this is why I see 1st class, excluding Etihad's hare-brained above first class schemes, as a complete waste compared to business class.

Seeing as I cook for the sheer joy of it as much as of necessity, you might think I care about good food. I do, but only to a limited extent. More importantly, I've a rather limited and peculiar taste. I don't think I can describe the revulsion and disgust I feel about fish and seafood easily. I'll just say that if I were to smell a perfectly cooked fish, a fresh fish and a rotten fish, I probably couldn't tell you which was which without actually looking at them, nor which made me feel more sick.

That's just one part. I also have issues with plenty of vegetables and fruits. In reviews of 1st class flights which include menus, there are literally times when I think "I'd have a miserable time if I were to take that flight in 1st class."

In the late 90s, a close friend of mine got married. The menu for the dinner was:

A small appetizer made with eggplant, provolone cheese and asparagus in an olive oil dressing (I ate the cheese)
Cream of salmon soup
Some kind of fancily cooked shrimp over a bed of rice
And there was a desert, but I forget what it was.

This being a close friend, I stayed until rather late, while feeling starved the whole time (there's a story about a substitution, but that's not relevant now). A few slices of provolone, bread from the basket and desert don't make for much of a meal. Hearing lots of (clearly insane) people rave about the menu didn't help my mood. And would you believe I did not skip out for 30 minutes to get dinner elsewhere because I thought that would be seen as rude?

That's the closest experience I've had which compares to a long haul flight with little or nothing appealing on the menu.

What's the policy about bringing your own food aboard??

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This is where Australians are actually spoiled on domestic flights. On our two full service carriers (Qantas and Virgin Australia) you will always get some form of food included.

There's food and there's a meal.

Interjet serves a complimentary snack on all flights regardless of duration. But this is limited to a pack of two or three cookies or a granola bar in morning flights, or a small bag of chips in afternoon and evening flights. Plus drinks, including alcohol, and you get the full bottle or can of soda (hint, Pepsi Light comes in a can). On their longest flights (MEX to JFK, Bogota and Lima), you also get a sandwich.

That's still better than Aeromexico, which serves a tiny bag (32 gr.) of peanuts and a drink (no full bottle or can, except for beer) on domestic flights, I hear regardless of duration. On international flights they serve more of a meal, but it depends on the length of the flight and the equipment. On a 90 minute flight to and from IAH to MEX on an Embraer regional jet, all I got was a cold sandwich, chips and drink (alcohol remains complimentary). I've been tempted to fly them to LAS, just to see what they serve en route.

The last time I got a hot meal in a flight was MEX-LAS round trip on Mexicana (RIP) in 2010. This means salad, bread, an entre with a side, desert, and a drink, plus coffee and a (complimentary) alcoholic drink after dinner. This was regular economy.

The less said about Volaris and Viva the better.

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Non alcoholic drinks are also free and at certain times of day Qantas will give you alcohol as well. And that's in economy. Also get check in baggage for free.

Both AM and Interjet serve complimentary alcohol in economy on all flights. The only caveat on Interjet is that the alcohol is not on the service cart in morning flights. But if you ask for it, they'll serve it.

AM includes one 25 kg. checked bag on domestic flights, and 32 or 35 kg. on international ones (apparently clothes are heavier when crossing national boundaries <w>). Interjet lets you check two bags with up to 50 kg. on all flights.

Quote: Nareed

I concluded the best feature of Interjet's is the legroom. BTW, they now advertise it as "86 cm. between rows." @2.5 cm. per inch~34-inch pitch. That's not bad at all for a single-class cabin.

Interjet serves a complimentary snack on all flights regardless of duration. But this is limited to a pack of two or three cookies or a granola bar in morning flights, or a small bag of chips in afternoon and evening flights. Plus drinks, including alcohol, and you get the full bottle or can of soda (hint, Pepsi Light comes in a can). On their longest flights (MEX to JFK, Bogota and Lima), you also get a sandwich.

Both AM and Interjet serve complimentary alcohol in economy on all flights. The only caveat on Interjet is that the alcohol is not on the service cart in morning flights. But if you ask for it, they'll serve it.

Interjet is owned by the grandson of the President of Mexico from 1946-1952 (Miguel Alemán Valdés).



Although they cater to the pure leisure traveler there primary customer seems to be the business traveler whose CFO is pleased by the relatively low prices compared to actual business class on AeroMexico. Interjet is not a OneWorld member, but they do have code shares with American Airlines , British Airways, Iberia, LAN and Tam Airlines which are all Oneworld members. In the USA they fly to DFW, IAH, LAS, LAX, MIA,JFK,SAT,SFB (Orlando Sanford International Airport).

In Sept. 2013 Volaris raised close to $350 million through an initial public offering, in a deal that is shaping up as a litmus test for other airline offerings in Latin America. Interjet has delayed their opening, obviously hoping to raid much more.

Quote: Pacomartin

Interjet is owned by the grandson of the President of Mexico from 1946-1952 (Miguel Alemán Valdés).

Yes, but it's not something I hold against him.

Not having a nose camera on all flights, now, that's unforgivable :)

Quote: Nareed

Not having a nose camera on all flights, now, that's unforgivable :)

Because, Interjet is not publicly held, they don't report financials. The big question that I have is do they still make a profit with free booze, more empty seats, and larger pitch. If they do then why can't the other airlines offer a similar product?

There is no airline in the USA that offers a similar product. A single class 3-3 seating, 33" pitch seating, 25 rows,free booze, and cashback frequent flyer program.

Quote: Pacomartin

Although they cater to the pure leisure traveler there primary customer seems to be the business traveler whose CFO is pleased by the relatively low prices compared to actual business class on AeroMexico.

Oh, compared to business class in AM, everything is cheap 8except flexibility in economy in Aeromexico, funnily enough).

Interjet got stuck with a reputation for lower fares, which I assume the airline likes. But truth is either their fares have gone up, or Am has lowered some of theirs, or both. I should do a comparison one of these days, taking into account Interjet's 50 kilo luggage allowance included in the fare.

Volaris is copying Viva, which has copied Ryanair, and now charges for just about everything, though not yet for carry-on luggage. I really know less about it than I'd like because I haven't flown them in years. I think maybe the last time was in 2012 LAS-MEX.

Last year, around March, I did do a price comparison between Interjet and Volaris for a MEX/TLC-LAS roundtrip, taking into account the luggage allowance and the transportation costs to TLC(*). Leaving frequencies aside (Volaris flies daily, Interjet only Thursdays and Sundays), Interjet was cheaper, and they have a lot more legroom.

(*) It turns out taking a cab to the point X in the city and hiring Interjet's shuttle to Toluca from there, costs about as much as a cab from my place to Mex City's airport. But if the trip involves two to 4 people, assuming all their luggage will fit in a mid-size sedan, then the cab to MEX is cheaper.

Quote: Pacomartin

Because, Interjet is not publicly held, they don't report financials. The big question that I have is do they still make a profit with free booze, more empty seats, and larger pitch. If they do then why can't the other airlines offer a similar product?

People don't drink that much in flight. From a casual observation, I'd say a few order beer, less order rum, tequila or vodka. And it's just one drink per passenger during the snack service. I don't think you can buy extras, either, though you can sometimes scare up a second drink from the FAs. One time I ordered coffee in an afternoon flight, the FA explained it would take a while to get it and asked if I wanted something else in the meantime. So I got a Pepsi Light and then I also got coffee.

The pitch is their trademark and they've been promoting it incessantly since their inception in 2005. Plus pitch in the other airlines, except Viva, isn't as bad as I gather it is getting in the US and Europe(*). Also keep in mind the average height for Mexicans is shorter than for Europeans or Americans. Given all that, I wonder how big a selling point the seat pitch is...

I suppose they make money somehow, as they've expanded a great deal in the last ten years. Maybe the crews are paid a pittance? They also own a rather large A-320 family maintenance facility in TLC. I've heard they service planes from various other airlines.

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There is no airline in the USA that offers a similar product. A single class 3-3 seating, 33" pitch seating, 25 rows,free booze, and cashback frequent flyer program.

Jet Blue has similar pitch and free WiFi. I'd take that over free booze any day.


(*) A review I read on flying AM's 787 from JFK to MEX in economy, marveled at the generous seat pitch. I think it was 32"