VIP aircraft

There are 8 Boeing C-32 (modified B757-200) belonging to the US Navy which were introduced in June 1998. they are most famously used by the VP and Secretary of State and more infamously used by congressional missions. On rare occasions they become Air Force One. They have frequently been associated with the Foreign Emergency Support Team of the U.S. State Department.

According to wikipedia the forward and aft lower cargo areas house extended range fuel cells giving them a 6,900 mi range (the longest range of any 757 in operation).

They are also used for VIP transport for the President of Mexico and Argentina, for Kazakhstan,for Uzbekistan, for Nepal. New Zealand uses them for the Governor-General, the Prime Minister, various other government officials, as well as the Head of State and members of the Royal Family when on New Zealand business.

The STATE department web site lists a 48 hour trip in May this year to Sochi to meet with Putin, a quick breakfast NATO meeting in Turkey and return for White House dinner. The unusual thing is it list refueling stops in both directions at Shannon Airport in Ireland.

Miles
Start: Andrews Air Force Base, Camp Springs, MD (ADW) to
3,280 Shannon Arpt, Shannon, IE (SNN) refuel to
2,290 Alder Sochi Arpt, Adler Sochi, RU (AER) to
660 Antalya Airport, Antalya, TR (AYT) to
2,190 Shannon Arpt, Shannon, IE (SNN) refuel to
3,280 Andrews Air Force Base, Camp Springs, MD (ADW)
11,700 total

The range given in wikipedia and other places should have been more than enough to fly nonstop to Russia and back from Turkey with a large margin left over. Given that this was such a fast trip, you would think that they would want to skip refueling stops if possible. My question is where is the mistake? Is the airplane underperforming? Do they hide the range? Are they simply extra cautious with the Secretary on board in potentially hostile places like Russia? Do they refuse to take on fuel in Sochi and in Antalya and only refuel in Ireland?

As we discussed earlier the President of Mexico finds it a nuisance that he must refuel simply to fly to Europe. It was part of the motivation to upgrade to a Dreamliner for his replacement plane. Of course, the last major delivery year for the B757 was 2001 with a few straggling deliveries to 2005, so they are fairly old to be used for new VIP aircraft. There is no other narrow body aircraft with that kind of range. Business aircraft can go up to 7500 nm and will reach 8000 nm by next year. But presidents of major countries do not like the idea of a smaller business aircraft being followed by other personnel

It is 3,190 miles from MEX to Gander International, Gander, NF (YQX) to refuel. From Gander most of Europe and part of the Middle East is accessible (Istanbul is 3900 miles; Dubai is 5740 miles) without a second intermediate refuleing.

Should we get widebodies for the VP and Secretary of State?

Quote: Pacomartin

The unusual thing is it list refueling stops in both directions at Shannon Airport in Ireland.

When I read this, I immediately thought "security." It's easier to secure one place rather than many, particularly a well-known one.

It would make "security sense" to refuel only in one place, if you can manage that. Offhand I can't recall a plane ever crashing due to bad fuel, but I suppose it's a possibility.

Or the travel flunky gets a kickback at Shannon? ;)

Quote: Nareed

When I read this, I immediately thought "security." It's easier to secure one place rather than many, particularly a well-known one.

I suppose that is a possibility. I though it was it less than 5600 miles from Washington to Russia (Sochi) and it is about the same distance from Turkey back to Washington. But that assumes that you refuel in both those places.

On the other hand it is 5140 miles from Shannon to Shannon a little more than 24 hours later. Perhaps they didn't want to refuel at all in Russia or Turkey.

He just came back from a trip to Germany, Austria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia (13,557 miles) and his only dedicated stop for refueling was Shannon on his way home from Saudia Arabia. Presumably he simply gets fuel in Germany during his visit (or possibly in Saudi Arabia as well) He just can't make it all the way back nonstop.

Do you think it is an indignity for the SoS to keep being forced to make refueling stops?

The Boeing 737-700ER: has a fuel capacity of 10,707 US gal (almost 4000 more than a regular Boeing 737-700) and has a capability of 10,695 km instead of the more normal 6,230 km.

If the SoS doesn't get a widebody replacement it will probably be a 737-700ER (or more likely one of the newer B737 Max). That's a smaller plane than a B757.

Quote: Pacomartin

Presumably he simply gets fuel in Germany during his visit (or possibly in Saudi Arabia as well) He just can't make it all the way back nonstop.

By any chance does the plane land at an USAF base in Germany? That's pretty secure.

Quote:

Do you think it is an indignity for the SoS to keep being forced to make refueling stops?

John Kerry? It's an indignity to make the Patrician and Senator spend any time at all in travel. Why doesn't he have a teleporter for his own personal use yet? What is this? France after the Revolution?

I don't think indignity applies with a private jet, especially a converted commercial passenger jet.

And I plain don't care for Kerry.

I think its a matter of taking aboard only trusted fuel and coordinating with fighter escort planes.

Given some Russian runways, pilots probably don't trust Russian fuel.

Quote: Nareed

By any chance does the plane land at an USAF base in Germany? That's pretty secure.

I don't think that is possible every trip. they have time to drive him from a USAF base. Secretary of State John Kerry went to Lubeck, Germany (4000 miles each way) , from April 14 to 15 to attend the 2015 G-7 Foreign Ministers’ meeting. Lubeck is a pretty historic town of population 200K



There is a no military bases nearby. A local airport is in insolvency, but has a 7000' asphalt runway. About 35 miles away is the much larger Hamburg Airport of 15 MAP which is big enough that United Airlines has one flight from Newark airport.

Presumably a G-7 foreign minister's meeting has multiple VIP aircraft and the German military takes care of security while all these planes are parked and refueled.

Secretary Kerry is closing in on a million miles on the modified B757-200. It has broken down twice forcing him to switch to commercial planes. Once in Vienna (Oct 2014) and once in Honolulu (Aug 2014). The back to back breakdowns means that he is complaining about the age of the plane. I assume options are being discussed.

Quote: Pacomartin

I don't think that is possible every trip.

Well, they can land at the pretty medieval town and allow the VIP to deplane, then take the plane to an Air Force base and refuel.

There! I win the internet! ;)

Of course very likely instead they let the local troops, with lots of interference from the USAF and Secret Service, handle things, as you suggested.

Quote: Nareed

Of course very likely instead they let the local troops, with lots of interference from the USAF and Secret Service, handle things, as you suggested.

The secretary of state had a meeting in Abuja Nigeria (5510 miles) and he refueled in Dakar Senegal
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Mmq4_V7oJWY/Tbr9tZE2LzI/AAAAAAAAAF4/cOhMbxHsULo/s360/217613_10150533120530696_712550695_17951901_6207416_n.jpg]

3940 miles Andrews Air Force Base, Camp Springs, MD (ADW) to Leopold Sedar Senghor Arpt, Dakar, SN (DKR)
5510 miles Andrews Air Force Base, Camp Springs, MD (ADW) to Abuja Intl, Abuja, NG (ABV)

Once again, I thought that the plane could easily go 5500 miles before needing refueling. But your security argument makes more sense to me. Even if the plane makes it to Abuja, he could never take off without refueling there. It makes more sense that he would stop in Dakar which is a known airport. That way he can wait to refuel when he is in Europe. The Secretary stopped in Switzerland which is safe place, so he has no need to stop at Shannon Ireland.

I know that Dakar is a safe place, because it is one of the very few times I have heard of the Air Force One VC-25 stop solely for refueling. President Obama stopped on his way to Nelson Mandela's funeral. So now we know the range of the VC-25 listed in wikipedia is accurate

7800 miles range VC-25 according to Wikipedia
8100 miles Andrews Air Force Base, (ADW) to Tambo International Airport, Johannesburg, ZA (JNB)
8110 miles Andrews Air Force Base, (ADW) to Leopold Sedar Senghor Arpt, Dakar, SN (DKR) to Tambo International Airport, Johannesburg, ZA (JNB)

I wonder how the Presidents of Mexico and Brazil gets to South Africa? President Enrique Peña Nieto of Mexico and President Dilma Rousseff of Brazil were at the funeral. Perhaps they stopped at the former Francisco Mendes Airport in Cape Verde which was renamed in honor of Nelson Mandela in 2005. That would be fitting.

4950 miles Juarez Intl, Mexico City, MX (MEX) to Francisco Mendes, Praia, CV (RAI)
2710 miles Brasilia Intl Arpt, Brasilia, BR (BSB) to Francisco Mendes, Praia, CV (RAI)
4490 miles Francisco Mendes, Praia, CV (RAI) to Tambo International Airport, Johannesburg, ZA (JNB)

Argentina's Vice President, Amado Boudou, went to Mandela's funeral. It is only 5000 miles to Johannesburg from Buenos Aires
5040 miles Ministro Pistarini, Buenos Aires, AR (EZE) to OR Tambo International Airport, Johannesburg, ZA (JNB)

Quote: Pacomartin

I wonder how the Presidents of Mexico and Brazil gets to South Africa? President Enrique Peña Nieto of Mexico and President Dilma Rousseff of Brazil were at the funeral. Perhaps they stopped at the former Francisco Mendes Airport in Cape Verde which was renamed in honor of Nelson Mandela in 2005. That would be fitting.

You have to figure fewer people all over the world want to kill the presidents of Mexico or Argentina than the US President. Therefore their security isn't as tight or as extensive. Nor can they even afford it. For example, I doubt Peña Nieto has cargo planes along to bring his limo on state visits (Shh! The Secret Service also keeps backup presidential limos at a few locations in the US, and possibly abroad as well). He probably takes a local fancy car, or one from the embassy.

A better comparison, perhaps, for the US president would be His Royal Highness Comrade Putin the First (I don't much care for him either).

Quote: Nareed

A better comparison, perhaps, for the US president would be His Royal Highness Comrade Putin the First (I don't much care for him either).

According to Wikipedia the base model for the Russian President's plane cost $40-$50 million. That makes no sense as even plane old narrowbody B737s and A320s cost more than that.



The office of the historian at the state department keeps track of the TRAVELS OF PRESIDENTS, but they are different than the accounting of the Secretary of State
President Obamas International Travel first term

The SoS gives detailed mileage, international refueling stops, and precise schedule. None of that detail is recorded for the POTUS. Plus it seems to be on a time delay so that the trips are really history. The SoS has his travel details updated after every trip.

Quote: Nareed

You have to figure fewer people all over the world want to kill the presidents of Mexico or Argentina than the US President. Therefore their security isn't as tight or as extensive. Nor can they even afford it. For example, I doubt Peña Nieto has cargo planes along to bring his limo on state visits . He probably takes a local fancy car, or one from the embassy.

I doubt that anyone else in the world will not ride in a vehicle that he doesn't own. The British Queen rented a helicopter on her last visit. Given her advanced age, and that it was the 50th anniversary of her first visit as Queen (Princess visits don't count) she was afraid it might be her last trip. She rented the helicopter so she could dump the boring ceremonies and engage in her favorite pastime and go see the Kentucky Derby.

The Queen doesn't really need to come see the POTUS. Every new president goes to see her. It makes the First Ladies very happy.