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10yrs anniversary of GOL flight 1907
| October 3rd, 2016 at 8:50:20 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |  An Embraer business plane with 2 pilots and 5 passengers collided with a B737. The Embraer lost part of a wing and a tail, but landed at a military airfield one hundred miles away without any injuries. The B737 had it's wing sheared off and crashed in the jungle with all lives lost. The pilots of the business jet knew they hit something, but never saw what it was, until after they were debriefed. Brazil said it was partly the pilots fault, while the NTSB said the pilots were not responsible. For a period of 15 minutes the pilots tried to contact the controllers 12 times, but radio contact could not be made. The Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) system had not activated or alerted its respective crew, nor did any crew see the oncoming traffic visually or initiate any evasive action prior to the collision. While both planes were equipped with TCAS, it was later determined that the Embraer's transponder had ceased operating almost an hour earlier, at 16:02, rendering both planes unable to automatically detect each other.
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| October 4th, 2016 at 7:16:08 AM permalink | |
| Fleastiff Member since: Oct 27, 2012 Threads: 62 Posts: 7831 | I think you meant TCAS had NOT alerted.... You might mention the civil and criminal aftermath of this.. as I think the crew was detained and charged. |
| October 4th, 2016 at 7:41:01 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
From what I know about this accident, the pilots of the Legacy failed to notice their transponder was off, and that the TCAS was off as well. I'm not saying they're to blame. Like most accidents, there were multiple failures involved, from the manufacturer to ATC. The pilots were just one factor. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| October 4th, 2016 at 9:02:41 AM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
I think it was not a case of failing to turn something on, but they did not notice it was off. That was the basis for the courts in Brazil charging them. A judge in the state of Mato Grosso, where the accident took place, originally gave the pilots prison sentences. But they were commuted to community service to be completed in the United States. Relatives of the crash victims protested and Brazilian prosecutors appealed the sentence reductions, seeking a prison sentence and suspension of the pilots' licenses to fly. |
| October 4th, 2016 at 9:56:18 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
It wasn't very noticeable. Coupled with the trouble contacting ATC and the usual workload, that's why I assign responsibility to the manufacturer as well. In any case, most aircraft accidents shouldn't involve criminal charges, unless there is malicious intent or deliberate neglect involved. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| October 4th, 2016 at 11:01:23 AM permalink | |
| Fleastiff Member since: Oct 27, 2012 Threads: 62 Posts: 7831 | Tell that to Greece, Yugoslavia, Germany, Russia, Argentina and Brazil. I've not double checked but I think each of these countries routinely consider bringing charges of a criminal neglect against controllers. In France any incident that involves fifteen or more fatalities automatically results in an Investigative Magistrate giving a formal warning of criminal charges to the defendant which immediately limits his travel abilities. Yugoslavia once jailed a controller for performing a last minute desperate shout in his native language instead of in English. Brazil has moved criminally against controllers in other incidents. However, I do not recall what happened to the pilots in the Soccer Match flight wherein the flight crew flew directly into the sun for hours while listening to a soccer match and teh stewardess refused to convey any message to the flight crew from passengers who knew the plane should be heading slightly east of due North. |
| October 4th, 2016 at 1:26:09 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
The recording (salty language) of the two business jet pilots is about 40 minutes long with the accident occurring between 3 and 4 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g8Q3qF3IzQ They really had no idea what had happened. Naturally they suspected they had hit another airplane but they had no real confirmation. They are going crazy because they can't radio the tower. A few minutes after the accident one pilot ask specifically if the TCAS is on, and the other one says "yes the TCAS is on". So they had no idea that the TCAS transponder was not working. The robot voices are very loud and annoying at times. So if they were getting a robot voice telling them the TCAS had failed it would have been obvious. They landed at an Air Force airport SBCC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cachimbo_Airport The great circle paths didn't seem that close, so I am surprised the planes hit each other. The business jet was headed north west, while the B737 was headed south east. SBCC or Cachimbo Airport is in the middle of nowhere and is all military. The business jet flew 140 miles from the accident to this airport to make an emergency landing.  |
| October 4th, 2016 at 1:46:47 PM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
Yes, but a mistake like that after a crash when you're frantic and trying to keep the plane from going down, is hardly the time to notice small details in the display if they're not life or death. The pilot saying "yes, it's on," most likely remembered turning it on or checking it much earlier in the flight.
I think there's a problem with audio alerts as it is. Mind you, there are no studies about it that I know, but the AF flight that crashed in the Atlantic did have a very loud voice warning "STALL! STALL!", and the crew still failed to recognize the problem they were having (right up until near the end when the captain finally realized they'd stalled). The explanation is that Airbus pilots seem to believe their planes cannot stall due to the safeguards in the flight management system. I'd buy that. I've seen a number of cockpit videos of planes landing at difficult and unusual airports. In some located amid mountains, there are many "TERRAIN!" warnings the pilots rightly ignore (if they know the route and the topography), otherwise they'd be messing up the approach every few minutes. Maybe pilots don't listen to them as much as they should. Something similar happens with Waze when it suggests odd directions. I often don't pay attention, but I judge I'm justified only perhaps half the time. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| October 4th, 2016 at 3:07:19 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
Well the TCAS should have been a very last resort system. The fact that the air traffic control put them at the same altitude on the same flight path in opposite directions in an area with low visibility is the serious problem. The planes were respectively 85 minutes (B737) and 129 minutes (Embraer business jet) from takeoff, so they had been on those flight paths for a reasonably long time, and no alarm bell went off at air traffic control. The fact that the transponder in the TCAS was out was not even discovered until the post mortem. |
| October 4th, 2016 at 3:30:00 PM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
I know TCAS relies on transponder data, and I think I can justify why. The problem is that it goes offline if the transponder stops working. It would be better if it kept working. Now, the GOL 737 would not have known or been warned the Legacy was there, but the Legacy could still be warned about the airliner. How effective the system would be, I've no idea. Typically TCAS has both planes maneuver for maximum separation. One dives and the other ascends, most times. Last resort or not, it's very serious. Mid-air collisions were few even before TCAS, but the thing is you never know when one can happen. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |