Boeing-Airbus rivalry heats up again

Yes. Just look at Las Vegas. People always think of passenger flights but all that fresh food arrives by air.

I know there are freight operations, not just letter packets, from FedEx, DHL, etc but there are perhaps still 'freight flights' for passengers luggage. Decades ago I flew on one from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Loaded like cattle and treated like cattle. It was a flight for prior passenger's bags or something.

Manufacturers prefer variable planes, not just fixed roles. Cargo, passengers, military utility. Manufacturers do not want to be locked in to any situation.

Steven Udvar-Hazy during this past spring’s International Society of Transport Aircraft Trading (ISTAT) conference in San Diego gave some justification for the decision to go with a twin aisle conceptual NMA instead of a single aisle.

Quote: Steven Udvar-Hazy

Most of the 57 airlines with which Boeing has consulted on its concept for an NMA have expressed a desire for better cabin comfort and lower turn times at airports, clearly suggesting a preference for twin-aisle design. Delaney explained that designers cannot plausibly stretch an airplane designed to carry as many as 270 seats in a dual-class configuration beyond the length of a 757. “If you stretch a single-aisle NMA, it’s about 18 to 25 feet longer than a 757,” he estimated. “I’m not exactly sure that’s optically an airplane you want to be on. I certainly wouldn’t want to be in row 65E waiting to get off.”

I think he is guilty of a hyperbole. A theoretical dual class B757-300 is 243 seats in dual-class seating (12F+231Y) or 3 rows of first class, plus 38.5 rows of economy.

If I add 27 economy seats that is another 4.5 rows which is 4*31" which adds 4*30+120" or 10' in cabin length. That would theoretically take you to 46 rows, which is still a long way from 65 rows.

Besides, who is to say that 270 seats is such a magic number. Couldn't they just rebuild the 757 with 243 seats?

Regardless, it is clear that Boeing feels that a tiny dual aisle jet will set them apart from the A321LR and allow them to sell 4000 planes.

At any rate Boeing seems determined to kill as many of the A330neo orders that it can, so that the NMA has no competition

1. 25 United States Delta Air Lines 19. Nov. 2014
2. 15 United States CIT Group 3. Dec. 2014
3. 66 Malaysia AirAsia X 15. Dec. 2014
4. 15 Ireland Avolon 23. Dec. 2014
5. 29 United States Air Lease Corporation 9. Mar. 2015
6. 14 Portugal TAP Air Portugal 13. Nov. 2015
7. 14 Indonesia Garuda Indonesia 19. Apr. 2016
8. 2 Israel Arkia Israeli Airlines 11. Jun. 2016
9. 2 New-Caledonia (France) Aircalin 29. Nov. 2016
10. 28 Iran Iran Air 22. Dec. 2016
11. 5 Brazil Azul Brazilian Airlines 21. Sep. 2017
12. 2 Senegal Air Senegal 15. Dec. 2017
13. 2 Singapore BOC Aviation 15. Dec. 2017

It's interesting that Delta has cancelled Dreamliner orders made by Northwest and is keeping the A330neo.

Is it possible? I don't think so with the airlines, but maybe with the leasing companies.

1. 29 United States Air Lease Corporation 9. Mar. 2015
2. 15 United States CIT Group 3. Dec. 2014
3. 15 Ireland Avolon 23. Dec. 2014

Quote: Pacomartin

Regardless, it is clear that Boeing feels that a tiny dual aisle jet will set them apart from the A321LR and allow them to sell 4000 planes.

Okay. Its tiny. What advantages that give to an airline or airport? None really. Some parking and maneuvering advantages, I guess but the apron area is already a certain size and even a relatively tiny aircraft won't change anything.

Okay. Its dual aisle. So it will load its smaller number of passengers real fast and annoy fewer people when a middle-seated passenger wants to get in and out during flight for bladder relief or the relief of leg circulation problems or fears.

So its a somewhat more nimble and somewhat more comfortable airplane. It will appeal to those sardines that are larger and have more money to spend. And the turnaround time will infinitesimally shorter.

Bid deal. Airlines might want to appeal to the wealthier sardines but they are still sardines so it won't make all that much difference to be trapped in an aviation system but in a slightly more comfortable container while being twenty-fourth in line for take off, thirty-sixth in line for landing and eighth in line for a gate.

Quote: Fleastiff

Okay. Its tiny. What advantages that give to an airline or airport? None really. Some parking and maneuvering advantages, I guess but the apron area is already a certain size and even a relatively tiny aircraft won't change anything.

A small widebody twin engine aircraft is not a new idea. Airbus deciding to launch the A310, into production on 7 July 1978. Air Transat (a low cost Canadian airline) still operates one with 244 seats.
Row #
#5-#12 (8 rows*9 seats =72)
#14-#24 (11 rows *9 seats =99)
#24-#31 (7 rows *7 seats=49)
#1 6 seats
#2 6 seats
#4 6 seats
#13 3 seats
#32 3 seats


Only 255 A310s were sold. Boeing is hoping to sell 4000 NMA. They are planning for two variants with nominal 225 and 270 seats in dual class.

Although the A310 has been out of production for 20 years, I wonder if it can be revived to compete with the B797. It OEW of (174,619 lb)or (170,631 lb) is over 700 lbs per seat, but Airbus might be able to sell it at the same price as the A321neo which would make it very attractive as long as fuel prices remain low.

The 767-300ER went into production 30 years ago, and Boeing is considering restarting that line.

Quote: Pacomartin

Although the A310 has been out of production for 20 years, I wonder if it can be revived to compete with the B797. It OEW of (174,619 lb)or (170,631 lb) is over 700 lbs per seat, but Airbus might be able to sell it at the same price as the A321neo which would make it very attractive as long as fuel prices remain low.

The 767-300ER went into production 30 years ago, and Boeing is considering restarting that line.

Patrick Smith brought up a seating configuration in economy of 2-3-2 for the 797. I don't know if that's been finalized or is merely one possibility. It matches the configuration of the 767, ergo Smith's suggestion about reviving the 767-200.

Strictly speaking the 767 is still in production. I know some for passenger service were delivered in this decade. There are pending orders for freight versions. And the 767 is the basis for the military's next tanker aircraft. So selling it to the airlines again should be simple.

Quote: Nareed

Strictly speaking the 767 is still in production. I know some for passenger service were delivered in this decade. There are pending orders for freight versions. And the 767 is the basis for the military's next tanker aircraft. So selling it to the airlines again should be simple.

The B767-300F (freighter) and a military version is still in production. That is close to the B767-300ER. Delta has five configurations of the -300ER and this is one of them (226 total seats).
Delta One 77-81" 21" 26 flat bed seats (6 rows* 4 seats + 1 row *2 seats)
Delta Comfort+ 35" 17.9" 35 standard seats (7 rows* 5 seats)
Economy 31-32" 17.9" 165 standard seats (21 rows* 7 seats + 2 rows* 4 seats)

36 rows total for Delta's configuration B767-300ER for 226 total seats.
31 rows total for Air Transat's configuration of A310 for 244 total seats (no flat bed seats).

I simply assumed Boeing would not stick with the 2+3+2 configuration as it is too inefficient in terms of plane weight per seat and return to the 3+3+3. They have not mentioned the seats abreast in press releases so far.

I mentioned earlier that I thought Boeing would at least match the 17'4" of the A330neo, which explains why they are so desperate to kill the A330neo-800 (which will look very similar to the B797).

Cabin Width
Cseries 10'9" (5 across)
B737 11'3" (6 across) - also B757
A320 12'2" (6 across)
B767 15'6" (7 across)
B797 ????
A330neo 17'4" (8 across)<--------------------------
B787 18'0" (9 across)
B777 19'2" (10 across)
B747 20' (10 across)
A380 21'5" (11 across maximum)