Happy Easter!

Quote: FrGamble

I'm glad to hear you strike a much more agnostic tone as of late

You're having a hearing problem. No
part of me is agnostic, not possible.

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don't recognize the evidence for Christianity

I don't know what this means.

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saying your selfish life was about doing what made you feel good

How sophomoric you paint me. I
never said such a childish thing.
I said rarely do what I don't want
to do, not that I only did things
that made me feel good. I do many
things that are boring and trivial
everyday, like we all do. But they're
things I want to be doing because
if I don't, they won't get done.

Two days ago the septic tank needed
to be pumped and I had to dig it up
so they could get the lid off. Do you
think I wanted to be doing any part
of that? But I did it anyway as a purely
selfish act. If I didn't, I would have no
sewer and no toilets could be flushed
and no showers taken. See how selfishness
works?

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God is real and at Mass I'm confident you will see, feel, and hear Him.

Yeah, no. Been to masses, been to all kinds
of Xtion ceremonies. God isn't there, god
is only in peoples imaginations.

I think you are too smart to be an atheist, but when called out on it you foolishly claim to be one. You are childish in many ways. Your refusal to recognize another's arguments and your rejection of other points of view as made up or from other source is like a little kid. Your embrace of selfishness as your sole motivation for everything you do from porn to replacing septic tanks is kid like. You don't seem to be motivated by the good or the right. Your refusal to go to Mass is like me as a teenager, I thought just like you did until I grew up and took life and truth seriously.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you are too smart to be an atheist

So I'm smarter than Sagan and Hawking
and Einstein? I don't think so..

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Your refusal to recognize another's arguments

You don't have factual arguments, you
have opinions like 'Billions of believers
can't be wrong' and 'reason will get you
to god'. Neither of these opinions are
true, quit treating them like facts.

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Your embrace of selfishness as your sole motivation

It's your motivation also, you just
can't see it because your ego is
in the way. I remember having
this argument with a Xtion when
I was first working. He was almost
in tears telling me how his mom
sacrificed everything for her
family and was totally unselfish.
When I pointed out she was doing
exactly what she wanted to do, and
therefore was completely selfish,
he got furious with me.

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You don't seem to be motivated by the good or the right.

What I believe to be right and
wrong motivates me. What you
mean is I don't follow your
very specific rules. Why would I,
I'm not you.

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Your refusal to go to Mass,

Been to mass several times, seen it
on TV many times. Has it changed,
am I missing something new?

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I thought just like you did until

You were an atheist for years and years
and years? I somehow doubt that.

Einstein or the others you mentioned never would rule out the possibility of God and claim with absolute certainty that there is no God. They know now there is. Sometimes you seem to say that you think God is a possibility you are just waiting for proof. Putting aside the merits of such a thought it is more agnostic than atheistic. However, whenever this is pointed out to you, you get upset and claim to be an atheist.

By the way be careful about arguments based just on the authority of those big names. They are brilliant scientists but that does not make them brilliant philosophers or theologians.

Also be careful of using straw men arguments. You know I have never said because billions of people believe something then it is true. I've corrected you many times about this. It is of course evidence that you ignore.

Also reason will only get you to God. There is no reasonable argument that will ever lead you to atheism. This is just a fact and I'm sorry you don't like it. Why don't you present a reasonable and logical argument for atheism? I've given you the cosmological argument, the first mover, the uncaused cause all proving God's existence. You've had no reasonable response. I've pointed out the impossibility of an actual infinite regress, that something cannot come from nothing, and that the universe and everything in it is contingent and you have no response.

You continue to speak out of both sides of your mouth on the issue of what motivates you. First you say it is only selfishness and then you say you are motivated by right and wrong. What about when doing what is right is not what you want to do? I don't mean septic tanks I mean forgiving someone or not looking at women as sex objects for your own pleasure.

Quote: FrGamble

Einstein or the others you mentioned never would rule out the possibility of God and claim with absolute certainty that there is no God

They would and they did.

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Sometimes you seem to say that you think God is a possibility you are just waiting for proof.

God cannot exist in this universe,
the concept goes against every
law we know of. To believe in
god is to give the finger to science
and universal laws. Good luck with
that, you already tried it in your
Church.

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They are brilliant scientists but that does not make them brilliant philosophers or theologians.

Doesn't make them dumbo philosophers or
theologians either, as you're trying to imply.

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You know I have never said because billions of people believe something then it is true.

You've certainly implied it again
and again, all Xtions do. In their
big bag of illogic, it's number on
the 'go to' list.

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Also reason will only get you to God.

Real reason will always lead to atheism.
Ersatz reason might lead you to god.

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First you say it is only selfishness and then you say you are motivated by right and wrong.

What do you think motivates people,
the weather?

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What about when doing what is right is not what you want to do?

There are always lots of choices of
what's 'right', there is never just
one. Find the one you can live with
and do that. It's easy when you aren't
tied down to a dogma like you are.

What's the 'right' thing to do when
a homeless guy asks you for money.
Go ahead, tell us. And then I'll tell
you my selfish reaction to him.

Why do you think God cannot exist? Nobody is as foolish to say such a ridiculous thing. Can you support your claim? The men you mentioned earlier would never say such a thing.

God is necessary for the universe to exist with its order, laws, and beauty. I have given you many reasons why this is. Please give me one logical argument for atheism that goes beyond your gut feeling and emotional needs.

Do you mean it is easy to do the right thing when you have made yourself the only one that matters? Because I would agree that the life of a baby is easier than someone who has committed themselves to moral principles that go beyond themselves.

Quote: FrGamble

Why do you think God cannot exist?

The physical laws of the unverse
don't support the parting of
seas, or walking on water, or
rising from the dead, or all
the other tricks people claim
gods do. Saying a god will answer
your prayers has no basis in fact,
just the opposite seems to be true.

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Please give me one logical argument for atheism

I don't even need a logical argument.
The fact that believers have no logical
argument for the existence of god
is all I need. The obvious non existence
of something is it's own argument.
Do I really need a logical argument for
not believing in anything that doesn't
obviously exist?

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Do you mean it is easy to do the right thing when you have made yourself the only one that matters? .

I wouldn't know, I'm not not familiar
with anybody who thinks they're
the only one that matters. They're
called sociopaths and I don't know
any at the moment.

So you're not going to tell me what
you say when a homeless person asks
you for money? You surely must know
or have been in that position.

Quote: Evenbob

The physical laws of the unverse
don't support the parting of
seas, or walking on water, or
rising from the dead, or all
the other tricks people claim
gods do.

If miracles don't break, but suspend the laws of nature for a short time or event is that not possible?

Does not the idea of something coming from nothing or a real infinite regress truly break the laws of the universe?

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I don't even need a logical argument.
The fact that believers have no logical
argument for the existence of god
is all I need.

What is not logical about the cosmological, first cause, or unmoved mover argument?

Why do you think that it is logical to say that if there is no argument or evidence for something it must be false?

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The obvious non existence
of something is it's own argument.

What is obvious about non-existence?

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Do I really need a logical argument for
not believing in anything that doesn't
obviously exist?

YES!

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So you're not going to tell me what
you say when a homeless person asks
you for money? You surely must know
or have been in that position.

When I encounter a homeless person I take the time to get to know them. I ask them their name, how I can pray for them, about their family, how's their health, and how their faith in God is doing? Usually this takes place over a sandwich put often it is just on a park bench or curb.

Quote: FrGamble

If miracles don't break, but suspend the laws of nature for a short time or event is that not possible?

In sci/fi, maybe, but where in everyday
life do you see the physical laws of
the universe being suspended for
any length of time, short or long.

This is how we separate myth from
reality. If an ancient text states something
that today is not possible, we chalk
it up to myth. It never happened in
reality.

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What is not logical about the cosmological, first cause, or unmoved mover argument?

It's an argument, a suggestion, it doesn't
exist as fact. It's not evidence of anything
real in the physical world.

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Why do you think that it is logical to say that if there is no argument or evidence for something it must be false?

Because it usually is. Do you know
lots of things that have no argument
or evidence that are true? This is what
religion did forever, they proclaimed
such things as true and you weren't
allowed to disagree.

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What is obvious about non-existence?

That it can't be seen, heard, felt, or detected?
That you would never even know about the
concept unless somebody came up with it.
Then all you demand is a little thing called
proof.

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When I encounter a homeless person I take the time to get to know them..

When they ask me for money, I give them
a couple bucks. Why? Because it makes me
feel good, it's my selfish reaction to them.
Most of the time charity is never about the
person receiving the charity, it's about making
the giver feel good. Just another selfish act.

Quote: Evenbob

It never happened in
reality.

How do you make sense of miracles that happen today? What about appearances of the Blessed Mother? Eucharistic Miracles?

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It's an argument, a suggestion, it doesn't
exist as fact. It's not evidence of anything
real in the physical world.

Don't logical arguments like "A cannot be the same as not-A" govern the real world as surely as physical laws of nature? Why is the law of contradiction, for example, not a fact?

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Because it usually is. Do you know
lots of things that have no argument
or evidence that are true?

No I do not. In fact the only thing I have ever heard claim to be true without any argument or evidence is atheism. However, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - you know this. That is why I cannot claim just because there is no reason, logic, or evidence for atheism it is false. I have to demonstrably show that atheism is wrong as I have done many times with the arguments referenced above.

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That it can't be seen, heard, felt, or detected?

This would seem the opposite of obvious, wouldn't it?

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That you would never even know about the
concept unless somebody came up with it.
Then all you demand is a little thing called
proof.

Isn't the notion of God the oldest and most common human concept there is? Hasn't every culture and every people that has existed come to the knowledge that there must be some creator, some supernatural being, some meaning and purpose to life beyond ourselves?

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When they ask me for money, I give them
a couple bucks. Why? Because it makes me
feel good, it's my selfish reaction to them.
Most of the time charity is never about the
person receiving the charity, it's about making
the giver feel good. Just another selfish act.

Since you kind of asked a question here with the "Why?" I can say that this is very selfish and with all due respect in my opinion an awful thing to do. Don't treat another human being like a toll booth that in giving money to it makes you feel better. It is better to follow the golden rule and ask what would you desire in the situation of the homeless. You would want more than a couple of bucks thrown your way without an acknowledgement of your person hood. Give them some money, that is fine. But at the same time ask them their name and where they are from or something.