Professional Wrestling Thread

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April 10th, 2020 at 3:35:23 PM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Greetings!

I thought maybe I'd try to get in the writing mood with something a little bit light-hearted. While I would not consider myself a professional wrestling fan now, I was a rabid one from about 1990-2005 and maybe a casual fan from 2006-2010. I also have a very limited amount of experience actually being involved in it to a small extent.

Therefore, this thread is for all things professional wrestling, past or present.

For my part, I'm going to do one of my favorite things, listing stuff, and present a few lists as follows:

1.) Worst Finishing Moves
2.) Five Least Favorite (Well-Known) Wrestlers
3.) Top 5 Favorite Female Wrestlers
4.) Top 5 Favorite Tag Teams
5.) Top 10 Favorite Singles (Male) Wrestlers


Top 5 WORST Finishing/Signature Moves

Preface: This is the only distinction I am going to make between worst/best and favorite. In all other cases, I will be discussing favorites without consideration for whether or not they are the best. I should also add that there are two schools of thought when it comes to professional wrestling:

Pure Entertainment: Those who prefer pure entertainment want to see the most athletic thing, the funniest thing or the most entertaining thing at all costs. In terms of, "Wrestling Logic," a finisher can be completely ridiculous and it wouldn't matter to those who enjoy wrestling for pure entertainment.

Wrestling Logic/Suspension of Disbelief: This is my camp and is kind of the, "Old School," camp. Everyone knows that the results (absent a major botch or injury) are predetermined, but to really be entertained, we want to be able to buy into the notion that this is actually a competition.

For people in this camp, some of the, "Pure Entertainment," stuff would be as if the lead in a movie stopped what he was doing, looked directly at the camera, and reminded the audience, "Just so you know, none of this is real."

With that, it should be clear why these are my five worst finishing moves:

5.) (Almost) Anything Off the Top:

I'm counting. One-thousand one, one-thousand two, one-thousand three...and all the way to eight or nine. What the heck? That worked? You hit that move? Was he unconscious before that? If he was already out, then why not just pin him? Executing a move where you smash your body into the prone body of an unconscious person must certainly be some sort of crime, right? Why wouldn't the referee stop the fight?

The reason I say, 'Almost,' is because some signature (but not finishing) top rope moves against a standing opponent are reasonable enough.

4.) Hulk Hogan's legdrop:

Okay, let's start with this: The legdrop itself is not a bad move, but it's a move that should soften your opponent up in wrestling logic. Wrestlers execute legdrops all the time, so what is it that makes Hulk Hogan's particularly effective as compared to anyone else?

Nothing. It makes no sense.

Let's start with the primary setup, "The Big Boot." The Big Boot looks more like he's putting his foot up in the air and waiting for someone to run into it. Hulk Hogan is not a small and nimble man by any stretch of the imagination, but this is-time and again-one of the slowest and least-effective looking, 'kicks,' I have ever seen. I can barely call it a kick. This kick would legitimately knock over almost nobody and could be countered so easily.

Okay, so Hulk Hogan knocks his opponent down with an extremely timid and slow kick. After that, he bounces off of the ropes (usually slowly) and proceeds to deliver a nice looking legdrop across his opponent's chest and sometimes face. The legdrop itself is okay. Hogan gets impressive height on the jump for a big man, but he comes down so slowly (which does at least make it visually impressive) that it's hard to believe this is what ends his opponent.

The bodyslam followed by the legdrop is no better. It's the slowest and most timid bodyslam of all time. In most cases, it looks like Hogan is gently placing his opponent on the mat. It can hardly be called violent.

On rare occasions, Hogan will use the legdrop as a follow-up to a backbreaker. THIS should have been the primary setup. It's hard for a backbreaker NOT to look devastating, then Hogan can just back up, bounce off the ropes, and deliver the legdrop. Only then is the legdrop believable as the icing on the cake, but the move that does the real damage is, of course, the backbreaker.

So, most of the time it's horrible, other times it's not so great.

3.) Scotty 2 Hotty "The Worm."

You can look up a video for yourself if you wish. Granted, this was more of a signature move and almost never finished anybody. Fist drops from small guys usually don't finish anybody.

The part that doesn't make sense is that it takes a year and a half to execute. If nothing else, the opponent gets a chance to recover and catch his breath. Whatever it was that caused the opponent to be prone in the first place, the opponent was certainly worse off then as opposed to after getting a ten second break.

2.) The People's Elbow-The Rock

The opponent would have to be either unconscious or dead to allow this to happen. First, The Rock removes his elbow pad and throws it into the crowd. This takes anywhere from five to ten seconds. After that, The Rock runs towards one set of ropes, bounces off of them, hops over his opponent like a friggin' bunny, bounces off the other set of ropes, then hits the move after a long delay.

The setup for this move is generally the spinebuster, but it sometimes comes after Rock's actual finisher, The Rock Bottom. I randomly picked a video of it following a spinebuster and the move took a full twelve seconds to deliver. Twelve seconds. You can pin your opponent four times in twelve seconds.

I don't think anyone was ever finished because of The People's Elbow, but some people were finished despite the fact that he used it.

Even the most rabid Rock fans would have to admit that, in the sense of wrestling logic, this move is incredibly stupid.

1.) Sweet Chin Music

Shawn Michaels takes down his opponent by one means or another and then proceeds to loudly stomp on the ring for any number of seconds until the opponent gets up to inevitably eat this kick.

Here's the thing: Sweet Chin Music is perfectly acceptable as a finisher provided it is done without the theatrics, as was sometimes the case. It's a legitimate enough looking kick straight to the kisser. The two problems with the theatrics version of this move are:

A.) Just pin him. If the guy's down long enough for you to do this crap, the match is basically already over.

B.) Why doesn't the guy just counter or roll out of the ring? I'm on the ground. I know what Shawn Michaels' finisher is. I hear stomping. This isn't difficult. I can either get up and counter it with something (you know, I don't think I've ever seen a low dropkick to his other leg, or a diving chop block) or just roll out of the ring.

It was a close call between this and #2, but this one wins out because it is somehow even MORE telegraphed (sometimes) than The People's Elbow.

Five Least-Favorite (Well-Known) Wrestlers

Preface: It's not to say that none of those listed below are great wrestlers, I just don't like them for one reason or another.

5.) Rob Van Dam

The thing with Van Dam is that I never understood why he was such a big deal. He's not a big guy. He's not a technical wizard. He's not amongst the elite high-flyers. In terms of his ringwork, I'll grant that he's at least above average at just about everything, but I saw no reason for him to advance beyond the upper midcard.

As a character, he really didn't have any range. He's basically just an @$$hole that people like for some reason. Arrogant and full of himself, he would have been solidly locked into the heel category in the olden days of wrestling. Whether Van Dam was a face or a heel really depended more on who he was facing than anything that he himself was doing. He was pretty much the same guy with the same look and the same move set at all times.

4.) Hulk Hogan

I will say that Hogan makes this list mainly because of all his backstage politicking. He's also not a very good wrestler, from a technical standpoint. Some people have more cars than Hulk Hogan has moves. He had a white hot run and then coasted on that the rest of his life and the fact that his name on the card is going to be an automatic draw.

He also couldn't stand losing. There's a fine line between protecting your character and being a total mark for yourself...and Hulk Hogan was nowhere near that line. Hulk Hogan may have had millions of fans, but he was certainly the biggest one of them.

3.) Sting

He's not bad, per se, but he's extremely overrated as a character. He's The Crow with a baseball bat. He's not a great talker. His in-ring work is just okay. Maybe there's something that I'm just not getting.

2.) The Ultimate Warrior

I'm going to go take a leak, this guy sucks.

1.) CM Punk

This guy absolutely blows. CM Punk's run made me legitimately angry just because of how profoundly stupid it was.

I mean, come on, who is his skinny ass going to beat?

CM Punk would have been a very good cruiserweight champion, he could have been part of an excellent tag team...hell, maybe even float in and out of the upper midcard and be Intercontinental Champion a time or two. I could have accepted all that. I wouldn't have liked him as IC champ, but I could have accepted it.

But, Triple H for God's sake? I'm supposed to believe that this guy is going to beat HHH in a fight? I'm supposed to believe that that he is going to beat Brock Lesnar in a fight? Brock Lesnar would literally kill CM Punk, with his bare hands, in under a minute. CM Punk would only win that match if you allowed him to use a gun to his advantage.

AND THEN...CM Punk did the UFC thing. It was almost as if he did it as a personal favor to me in order to absolutely prove my point. He got his butt handed to him twice in the UFC in bouts that were nowhere near competitive.

Although, he did prove one thing: Sometimes it is better to never try at all than it is to try and fail.

I say this because the UFC thing ended any hope of him ever winning a pro wrestling championship again. Do you really want to be the guy that loses to someone who looks like CM Punk looked in two actual nationally televised fights? I don't. I'm not even within sniffing distance of being a professional athlete and I would be humiliated if I lost a fight to CM Punk. I can at least throw a punch, for one thing.

Top 5 Favorite Female Wrestlers

Preface: I know, I know, separating the genders is probably not the politically correct thing to do. Well, the ladies mostly fight in a separate division, so there you go. Also, none of them would crack my Top 10 list if it included everyone. That's nothing against women, mind you, there have been quite many more male wrestlers than there have been female ones.

5.) Victoria

She didn't have a lot of range, but she played a heel incredibly well and was technically proficient. She came off as legitimately psychotic and did a great job telling the story with her facial expressions and body language. When it comes to someone who you thought might snap and just beat the hell out of someone, Victoria is probably (in my eyes) the most believable female wrestler of all time.

4.) Gail Kim

Gail Kim came about during an era of a transition to excellent technical ability in women's wrestling. She also had an excellent balance of sex appeal (which was important at the time) combined with legitimate in-ring skills.

3.) Trish Stratus

Her on again off again feud with Lita and resultant matches are what brings Trish Stratus so high on this list for me. While less technically skilled than Lita, the two combined for any number of good looking matches that served as a launching point to legitimate in-ring skill in women's wrestling. Of all of Lita's frequent opponents, Trish probably needed to be carried the least.

2.) Lita

I'd love to put her higher on this list as she was instrumental in bringing a new era of technical proficiency to women's wrestling, but hindsight being 20/20, I have to admit that she had a few high spots and otherwise was just technically okay. Granted, she was somewhat hampered by having to carry the weight of a match against less technically sound wrestlers, so maybe that made her look not as great by extension. I'd love to have seen her in the modern era of wrestling with ladies who perform just as well as men, in many cases.

Aside from that, she had a cool as hell look. Prior to her role with Edge, she also didn't really sell so much on sex appeal, she mainly sold just by being awesome.

1.) Chyna

Was there any doubt? Chyna was absolutely seen (and rightfully so) as a credible threat to the men on the lower to lower-middle of the card. She legitimately looked like she could beat about 25-50% of the roster on any given night.

Granted, that was mostly due to her appearance and Chyna, I will admit, did have some downside. For one thing, she wasn't terribly technically sound, at least, not compared to her male counterparts. That's really a shame because it's quite possible that she could have developed actual in-ring skill more quickly had she been pushed to do so. She certainly got better as time went on, but would eventually compete mainly in the women's division.

The problem with that was that any match that would see Chyna losing became incredibly hard to believe. Ivory beats Chyna? Come on. No way. The only female wrestler (ignoring Nicole Bass who had even less ring skill) that could have maybe beaten Chyna on occasion (at the time) was probably Lita. In a realistic bout, Chyna would absolutely destroy anybody else.

Chyna did have a couple runs with the Intercontinental Championship under varying circumstances. Her first came by way of a debacle known as the, "Good Housekeeping Match," which would see her beat Jeff Jarrett. While it was excellent that Chyna would carry singles' gold outside of the Women's Division, it would have been so much better if it had come in a clean win in a standard match. Would that have been believable? I say believable enough. You could have someone like Billy Gunn be champion, he underestimates her, she gets some rock solid move in early and he never quite recovers. Maybe Chyna beats him in something like 1 in 20 matches, that's still a 5% shot that tells a good story.

---The other two lists (and maybe more) will be coming either later tonight or tomorrow.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
April 11th, 2020 at 5:04:36 AM permalink
RonC
Member since: Nov 7, 2012
Threads: 8
Posts: 2452
I'm a throwback to 1970's Championship Wrestling from Florida...when the outcomes were predetermined, it was still fake, but they believed in "Kayfabe"...

"In professional wrestling, kayfabe /ˈkeɪfeɪb/ (also called work or worked) is the portrayal of staged events within the industry as "real" or "true", specifically the portrayal of competition, rivalries, and relationships between participants as being genuine and not of a staged or predetermined nature of any kind. The term kayfabe has evolved to also become a code word of sorts for maintaining this "reality" within the direct or indirect presence of the general public.[1]

Kayfabe is often seen as the suspension of disbelief that is used to create the non-wrestling aspects of promotions, such as feuds, angles, and gimmicks in a manner similar to other forms of fictional entertainment. In relative terms, a wrestler breaking kayfabe during a show would be likened to an actor breaking character on-camera. Also, since wrestling is performed in front of a live audience, whose interaction with the show is crucial to its success, kayfabe can be compared to the fourth wall in acting, since hardly any conventional fourth wall exists to begin with. In general, everything in a professional wrestling show is to some extent scripted, or "kayfabe", even though at times it is portrayed as real-life.

Kayfabe was fiercely maintained for decades, but with the advent of the Internet wrestling community, and the sports entertainment movement, the pro wrestling industry has become less concerned with protecting so-called backstage secrets and typically maintains kayfabe only during the shows. Kayfabe is, however, occasionally broken during shows, usually when dealing with genuine injuries during a match or paying tribute to wrestlers."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe

Many people knew it was all essentially an action-filled play, but some were convinced it was real.

From that era, my favorite wrestler was Jack Brisco. He was a two-time NCAA Heavyweight wrestling champion and could put on some good wrestling exhibitions with other former amateur wrestlers. His finishing move was the figure-four leg lock.

Other names I remember from that era:

Dory Funk, Jr.
Terry Funk
Dusty Rhodes
Eddie Graham
Mike Graham
Lou Thesz
"Odd Job" Tosh Togo (was in a 007 movie)
Harley Race
Pak Song
Joe Leduc
Paul Jones
Tim Woods
Cyclon Negro
Buddy Colt
Bobby Shane
Rocky Johnson
"Cowboy" Bill Watts
...and many others

We would have matches every month in my hometown. I some how ended up being the timekeeper at ringside...I am guessing because the CWF guy didn't want to hang out there all night (he was the ring announcer). It was fun and I once held the Florida Heavyweight Championship belt during a match. The guys playe their parts well...I timed one match and it ended in a draw. When I rang the bell, the "challenger" (it was a Florida TV Title match, climbed onto the second turnbuckle and glared at me like I stole the title from him...

At that moment,with Tiger Conway, Jr. staring down at my 6' 140 lb self, it seemed pretty real for a minute.

Maybe he was really upset with me...I had added time to the match because I wanted him to win, but they still ended up finishing with him almost pinning the champion at the bell. They had a good sense of timing for that kind of thing.

I have been to only three live events in the past 30 years or so--a "Raw" program in DC, a "Smackdown" show at the NRG Arena here in Houston, and the "Wrestlemania" that as held here in the NRG Stadium.

I watch some now, but it is just not the same. Too much talk and too little action. I guess it is the sign of the times. The guys in the 70's could run a 60 minute "Broadway" (time limit draw) and keep the crowd in their hands the whole time. Sure there were lulls, but they always got the crowd back much like at concerts where a new song is often followed by a popular one to keep the folks in the seats.

"Red turns Green" was an important part of it. Blood drew fans. Most wrestlers had many scars (self-inflicted, most often) from their years in the ring. The face bleeds easily, so even a small cut, mixed with sweat, quickly turned their face, in the words of the great wrestling announcer Gordon Solie, "into a crimson mask"....

Anyway, wrestling is very different now than it was when I watched it regularly...
April 11th, 2020 at 5:29:46 AM permalink
SOOPOO
Member since: Feb 19, 2014
Threads: 22
Posts: 4157
Thanks Mission!

Even as it was happening, I always thought the Scottie Too Hotty worm finisher was just pathetic!

Best of all time? NO DOUBT>>>> Shane McMahon jumping from the top of Hell in a Cell. Billionaire risking his body for the show!
April 11th, 2020 at 5:53:43 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: SOOPOO
Billionaire risking his body for the show!
Isn't this an indicator of insanity?

Look don't get me wrong, I know there are risks in life and i know there are wussies who think that being under an oxygen tent means they can't smoke. Riding the rodeo circuit means you can wind up like Slim Pickins with a two thousand pound bull stomping on your balls but a billionaire taking risks?????????????/
April 11th, 2020 at 6:35:32 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
I liked the pre-mania era better, it was within belief then. More later.

What happened after 1993 or so they had the RAW angle, and the whole promotion got to be the story. So much so that when they showed McMahon being blown up in a limo some people said they should have made a press release saying he was really OK as it was by then a public company.

Still, onscreen it had more than one owner!



Showing that from Andy Kaufman to Donald Trump, it must be a dream of many to be part of the show.
The President is a fink.
April 11th, 2020 at 7:22:53 AM permalink
SOOPOO
Member since: Feb 19, 2014
Threads: 22
Posts: 4157
Quote: AZDuffman


Showing that from Andy Kaufman to Donald Trump, it must be a dream of many to be part of the show.


They have recently invented a way for a bunch of B list celebrities, and some A list ones as well, to hold a WWE title. It's called the 24/7 title, which can change hands on a seconds notice. The celebrity is usually congratulating the champion and then 'surprises' him by pinning him. Then a different WWE 'superstar' pins the celebrity and is chased to the locker room...
Enes Kanter (NBA)
Kyle Bush (NASCAR)
Rob Gronkowski (NFL- now full fledged WWE)

R-Truth tends to win it back frequently. 35 time champion.
April 11th, 2020 at 9:34:00 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
RonC,

Great breakdown on exactly how the concept of, "Kayfabe," works! I guess that's my point with the finishers and what not, I don't necessarily think Kayfabe needed to be held as completely untouchable, (which would have been difficult to maintain in the Attitude Era and for reasons you mentioned) but I do think it takes something away if the matches themselves don't look believable.

There are a great many other moves that would compete for a Top 10 list, just my Top 5 is dominated by absolute absurdity. The Spear would make the Top 10, for example. It's a tackle. That's all it is. The reason a proper (for lack of a better term) spear is called a spear is because the tackler launches his head directly into the opponent's midsection. The modern spear does not do that, it's just a wrap around basic tackle.

Definitely some all-time legends on that list! I don't think I would do a greatest list just because I wouldn't know what to do with most of them. Of course a Lou Thesz is going to be on it, but I've never actually seen him perform, so I couldn't really work with that. Another problem with a greatest list is I would have to swallow my soul and put Hulk Hogan on it. Yuck.

Definitely very different! They've all but done away with blading (keeping a little boxcutter blade in your tape to make little cuts on the forehead, or elsewhere) as the networks don't want blood on TV at all if it can be prevented.

SOOPOO,

You're welcome! The only reason it didn't rank higher is because he wasn't as big of a star and because, "The Worm," rarely actually finished anyone. Shane McMahon has done some crazy stunts! Don't forget the time he got thrown through legitimate plate glass!

Fleastiff,

Yeah, but it's a rush!

AZDuffman,

At one point, Trump kayfabe, "Bought," RAW and announced there would be no commercials in the future. The WWE stock went down several points and they had to release an announcement it was just for the show and there would indeed be commercials during RAW!

SOOPOO,

The 24/7 title is actually a watered-down version of the Attitude Era Hardcore Championship. Originally awarded to Mick Foley as a joke, the Hardcore Championship would later have a full division (mostly of low and low-middle carders) dedicated to it. After awhile, a champion named Crash Holly introduced the 24/7 rule, which meant (as now) that the belt could be defended anytime, anywhere, as long as someone had a referee with them!
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
April 11th, 2020 at 10:02:11 AM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
I got into pro wrestling back in the good old days Rowdy Roddy Piper, Mr Wonderful Paul Orndorf, Jesse the Body Ventura, Junk Yard dog, Greg Valentine ect
It was a lot of fun and pretty entertaining.
Then it changed for me
Saw the Iron Sheik and Sgt Slaughter get into it and the match was pretty bloody.
What really turned me off was the famous John Stossel expose on wrestling when he got his ears popped by Dave Schultz
I couldn't watch it anymore and found the entertainment disgusting with the cutting of the forehead to release blood to get the audience excited
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
April 11th, 2020 at 12:42:51 PM permalink
SOOPOO
Member since: Feb 19, 2014
Threads: 22
Posts: 4157
YEARS ago saw a pretty boy wrestler, maybe even his WWF debut? If not, early on in career and starting to get his 'push'. Long blond hair, steroid muscles.... Hunter Hearst Helmsley. Soon became triple H. Had front row seats; actually got sweat on us. Though fun, front row seats reveal the silliness of the moves more than TV does.

I also took care of an injured wrestler, sadly can't mention his name but a top of the card guy from ECW. Had his face smashed pretty good and needed ICU for a cardiac issue. The guy who 'beat him up' was obviously a good friend as he was visiting all the time.

Met Jerry the King Lawlor in an airport and reluctantly let me take his picture.
April 11th, 2020 at 1:05:18 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Went to the matches as a kid and managed to sneak down to the floor after intermission. Handicap match between Andre the Giant and Mr Fuji/Tiger Chung Lee. It would turn out to be their last house show as a team.

Mr Fuji kept refusing to tag in so security took him to the locker room. Andre won of course and we were watching Tiger walk back to the locker room. They made out that he did not speak English, but let me tell you, he sure knew all the swear words to describe Fuji. Maybe they really hated each other? Koreans and Japanese of that age were not exactly liking each other.

Anyhow, some kid spits at Chung Lee, who makes a move at the kid. Security shooed him down the ramp to the dressing room. Then, and I will never forget this, two guards pick the kid up by an arm each and walk him down the ramp. I do not think I have seen fear on a face to equate that the rest of my days. Just imagine as a kid of about 10-13 and that happening, dragged to the same room the wrestler was.
The President is a fink.
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