If you had to rate countries

September 29th, 2021 at 7:08:31 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 155
Posts: 13353
If you had to list countries by how free the citizens are to leave their country without negative consequences what would it look like?

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Just off hand I would guess N. Korea is one of the most difficult countries to leave without consequences. Not only do you likely have to be in a elite position, but you'd be well aware that your family will likely go to prison if you defect. And if you're ever caught you'll be imprisoned if not executed.

For what's it's worth, rather than wondering why someone might prefer to live under a religious government, or some other form of government, seems like a pretty good measure of whether a system works for the people is to find out how easy it is for someone to leave regardless of the form of government. The more they have to restrict people from leaving, the worse it is. (notice I'm not mentioning entering a country, because a country like N. Korea restricts entry but not because it's popular, but for security reasons, so i'm just measuring ability to leave. And some place like Monaco might restrict entry due to current population density.)

As far as I know, we don't have anyone here who wants to live under islamic law. But that doesn't mean there aren't people who do. Should we judge an Islamic government as terrible, if it's easy for the average citizen to leave? I'm not so sure we should. Doesn't mean another Islamic country isn't horrible though. You have to look at each one.

For those who remember, Russian defections used to make the news a lot more often. I assume despite Russia's not so great current government, Russia has a better rating as being able to leave without serious consequences, because that seems to be less of an issue for many.

Some other examples: Nazi Germany didn't just expel Jews, they tried to capture them trying to leave the country and send them to camps. Bad!
Right now the Taliban is restricting exits. Will it have to continue the policy or will that change eventually.
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October 1st, 2021 at 5:35:16 PM permalink
SOOPOO
Member since: Feb 19, 2014
Threads: 21
Posts: 3156
I think you are underestimating the difficulty in moving you and your family to a new country successfully. Even if say, you want to move from the USA to France. How many people have the means to really try it?
October 1st, 2021 at 6:07:26 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 133
Posts: 15887
Quote: SOOPOO
I think you are underestimating the difficulty in moving you and your family to a new country successfully. Even if say, you want to move from the USA to France. How many people have the means to really try it?


I already started the thread on it. It is much harder socially than financially. Have you ever relocated somewhere? It is not easy at all. So hard I wrote a kindle book on it, 1 sale so far but wow I am a published and selling author.

Much depends on ability to work abroad, which for Americans will be a shock since we hire people pretty freely here. If you are a digital nomad it probably works since most foreign countries do not care if you are working that way, the ones who do care you have to get caught. Getting caught might be easy or hard. If you are a quiet type who works from home just transferring money to the local bank would be better than someone out on the town who clearly is not working but has money to spend. But if you are spreading it and the locals like you they still have to care to arrest you.

Then there is the other stuff. Finding a reasonable apartment. Getting the utilities hooked up. Needing a good dentist. I can say from experience this stuff is not easy going to another state, if I have to do it for another country I will want a good expat community.
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October 1st, 2021 at 6:40:41 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 22
Posts: 2821
Quote: SOOPOO
I think you are underestimating the difficulty in moving you and your family to a new country successfully. Even if say, you want to move from the USA to France. How many people have the means to really try it?


I am not sure that was the OP's point. It was more based on being able to move out of a country without dying or being stopped by force (or having your domestic government impede you in some way trying to leave), not being successful or even comfortable to where you move.

By that logic, many people do not even have the means to comfortably move their families between States (for Americans)... It does not mean America is a hard country to leave (its very easy, legally).

That is not even getting into the legal complications of moving between countries (not just actually leaving the country if feasible, but finding a country you can move to that will accept you, which as you can probably imagine is hard if not close to impossible in some cases if you come from an "extremist" country, especially if you have ties to the government in your home country)... Its not just a matter of leaving a country, you have to find a country that you are eligible to move to (which can be more challenging than many people realize, even people with a virtually spotless record, countries can be very demanding on people who are not citizens as far as requirements).

Of course if you come from many of these countries, the same economic arguments are also in play (in some cases you will not be allowed to leave with anything, but the clothes on your back as it will be seized assuming you have anything in the first place -if you are fortunate enough to not have to sneak out and leave everything-), so that is another layer to add when you finally arrive, but at that point that is probably the least of your concerns.

This is not something I know a ton about, but North Korea is pretty universally regarded as one of the hardest countries to leave under any circumstance (you would be lucky to get out with the clothes on your back). I know people in certain international terrorist prisons have issues "finding a home" because even if they are eligible for release, no country will take them (sometimes not even their "home" country), so there is nowhere to ship them to, and they get stuck there longer (and often blame America for it....).



As for the OP's point, yes we should judge Islamic governments as bad, even if it were easy to leave (its often not). Theocracies generally survive by force and indoctrination. Often to the determinate of minorities (which can be a bad term, because "minorities" can easily mean over 50% of the population).