State Pensions. (NY)

There is a website called seethroughny that lists all people getting any state or local pension. I know because I am listed. Mine is ‘low’ because I retired early, only worked around 12 years in the ‘system’, and my salary eligible for pension was capped.

I always remember stories of NYC firefighters padding their last year or two salaries with massive overtime to raise their LIFETIME benefit. So I checked. The top 100 retired firefighters were getting a MINIMUM of $230k a year in pension! The number over $150k was too extensive to count, but probably was approaching 1000. This is just NYC firefighters. Police, sanitation, medical (like me!) etc…. the amount of money paid out is STAGGERING!

Well, I did have to ‘pay in’ while I was working. I think I paid around $1800 a year for 10 years. And will get $64k ish a year from 59 until I kick the bucket.

It will all crash eventually.

I don't think overtime should count towards pension credits, only base salary. I am not sure why some States do this.

But, I think the even larger issue is employees make six figures getting overtime in the first place. This seems to mostly apply to police and fire. You see high ranking police and fire people with a base salary of 125k-200k or whatever, and then they get another 100K-200k in overtime. I have never understood this. In most places if you make over 50k base salary (I think that is the cutoff), you are "exempt" (IE flat salary, no overtime, etc...). And, you are expected to work how ever many hours is reasonable (subject to State regulations etc...) to get the job done...

Quote: Gandler

I don't think overtime should count towards pension credits, only base salary. I am not sure why some States do this.

But, I think the even larger issue is employees make six figures getting overtime in the first place. This seems to mostly apply to police and fire. You see high ranking police and fire people with a base salary of 125k-200k or whatever, and then they get another 100K-200k in overtime. I have never understood this. In most places if you make over 50k base salary (I think that is the cutoff), you are "exempt" (IE flat salary, no overtime, etc...). And, you are expected to work how ever many hours is reasonable (subject to State regulations etc...) to get the job done...

You would need to be some sort of a supervisor to be in exempt status. Take away OT and you will have shortages of cops for big events and when a riot happens. Cops mostly talk about OT and months to retirement.

Quote: AZDuffman

You would need to be some sort of a supervisor to be in exempt status. Take away OT and you will have shortages of cops for big events and when a riot happens. Cops mostly talk about OT and months to retirement.

It depends on the Department (and State). Many private events police are paid by the event or company, even though they are allowed to wear their uniform and use their vehicle. So this is not part of their salary, its basically a side job, they just get to use their police equipment to do it. They are not actually getting paid by the City.

As for responding to riots, that should not be a motivation, people should be willing to work what needs to be done when their is an emergency (or even a urgent project). Especially at that salary level.

I just don't understand the principle that is so accepted that police and fire at high ranks with six figure salaries should get overtime. I think once you reach exempt status that should be the end of it. There should be no Captains making 150k making OT.

In any case even if you think they should, I think it can be defended for pension calculations. Pensions should be based on base salary.

Quote: Gandler

It depends on the Department (and State). Many private events police are paid by the event or company, even though they are allowed to wear their uniform and use their vehicle. So this is not part of their salary, its basically a side job, they just get to use their police equipment to do it. They are not actually getting paid by the City.

As for responding to riots, that should not be a motivation, people should be willing to work what needs to be done when their is an emergency (or even a urgent project). Especially at that salary level.

I think that works various ways. Sometimes you pay the department not the individual cops.

Nice to say they should do "what needs to be done" but the reality is they are doing a job for pay.

Quote: AZDuffman

I think that works various ways. Sometimes you pay the department not the individual cops.

Nice to say they should do "what needs to be done" but the reality is they are doing a job for pay.

But my point is, as you surely know, in the private sector the idea of somebody making 100K+ demanding overtime would be laughable, even in many government jobs (outside of police and fire). When you are salaried you are expected to work (within reason). Sometimes this means it works out in your favor as you have more flexibility if you finish early, sometimes you have to stay late.

Everyone does a job for pay, but there is a point where expecting overtime is absurd.

A good example where I work is the Fire Marshall/Fire Plan Reviewer who is of course salaried and also a certified firefighter. When they need somebody to fill in a 24 hour shift, they ask him to because they don't have to pay him overtime or call somebody in (he should work 8-5 M-F normally). Is it fair to expect somebody to stay on a Friday for 24 hours (standard fire shift here) after working 8 hours for no additional pay? I would say yes because that is part of the expectation. I would imagine some people would be enraged if they had an 8-5 office job but were expected to work random 24 hour shifts in the firehouse (with generally no notice) on top of it when required.
And, this is much more of an extreme example than a high ranking police officer being expected to stay an hour late to finish a report for no overtime.

And, police have many options for getting what is essentially overtime, by doing private gigs in uniform without the need to have the City pay them. This does not even have to be as extreme events as you mention, many bars and clubs routinely hire uniformed officers as security under this same principle, and they can still use their uniform, vehicle, weapons, etc... while being paid by a private company, which is a really good deal (for both the officer and the company). If you are a police officer there is literally an endless stream of gigs (or even regular part time employment) that you can get just by being a police officer.

In any case even if you think overtime should be a right for everyone regardless of salary (I don't agree, but I can understand the argument), I don't think it should influence pension contributions. If you are making that much overtime routinely, you can stash the excess in your 457 to make up the difference if you feel that you need to, and if you max that out and your IRA, you are in excellent shape and should not have to worry about increasing your pension. I have a feeling pensions are on the way out, and egregious scenarios like this are one of the reasons why (of course there are many other issues).

Quote: Gandler

But my point is, as you surely know, in the private sector the idea of somebody making 100K+ demanding overtime would be laughable, even in many government jobs (outside of police and fire). When you are salaried you are expected to work (within reason). Sometimes this means it works out in your favor as you have more flexibility if you finish early, sometimes you have to stay late.

Pay rate is not what determines exemption. Responsibilities and if you are a supervisor determine that. Most cops are non-exempt.

Quote: AZDuffman

Pay rate is not what determines exemption. Responsibilities and if you are a supervisor determine that. Most cops are non-exempt.

Except it is a factor, there is some arbitrary cut off point, I think around 50k, and then the other requirements are either being over a certain number of people (its not many, like two or three, every police SGT would fit this alone), or having a technical, or specialized skill, or professional job (or bunch of other attributes, almost any job can be exempt if you look at the requirements and push it, I think the exception is jobs requiring majority manual labor as their role). It's not just being a supervisory role (though that is one field).