Grafton, NH

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December 16th, 2023 at 5:24:09 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Success or failure I like to see exploration of political ideas. (I copied this from a slide show, and didn't confirm the accuracy.

Quote:
In 2004, a group of libertarians decided to try building a free-town utopia by taking over Grafton, New Hampshire. The project sought to reduce government control over almost every aspect of citizen life.

The attempt died in 2016, and in 2020, local journalist Matthew Hongoltz-Hetling described it in a book. According to Hongoltz-Hetling, a few hundred libertarians moved into the town, with around 1,000 residents.

Hongoltz-Hetling told Vox that the project was an attempt by the American Libertarian Movement to show the world how their no-government principles worked in real life.

When they arrived, they started advocating to cut government funding. They convinced some previous residents to reduce police, road and fire services, and the public library.

A few years went by, and the problems from the lack of services started to show: neighbor complaints went up, as well as the number of sex offenders and the legal costs for the town hall that had to fight Libertarian suits. The city had its first murders.

They also had a trash problem. Since many lived in tents, containers, or trailers near the woods, and there were no clear rules on how to dispose of trash, bears started to take notice of their waste.

Black bears are not usually violent. However, they started to understand that where humans lived, there was food, and they became increasingly comfortable around people to the point of danger.

Hongoltz-Hetling explained that every person chose to deal differently with the bears, contributing to the problem: some shot them, others placed traps, and others fed them. The issue caused the first bear attack in the community in 100 years.

Despite the Free Town Project being one of the most famous examples, political emigration experiments (flooding a town, state, or country with people who share ideals to change that place) are not new.

The Mainzer Adelsverein is one example of how old that practice is. In 1846, a group of German noblemen organized a colonizer attempt to create a new Germany through controlled migration to what was the Republic of Texas back then. The war between the US and Mexico frustrated their plans.

In 1970, a Yale law professor proposed something similar in an essay titled "The Jamestown Seventy," after the first British settlers. He evoked the importance of the American frontier in the country's foundation and the "local control" logic of federalism.

He claimed that the dissatisfaction experienced by young people, or the "Woodstock generation" could be solved by massive migration to a single state to shape it as they wish.

That essay inspired the Free State Project (the umbrella for Grafton's initiative), seeking to move enough libertarians to New Hampshire to change the state's politics and turn it into a libertarian paradise.

The same group had tried something similar in Texas a year after the Grafton project started. They chose Loving County because it is one of the country's least populated, making it easier to take over.

They claimed to have bought land and registered to vote there. They didn't expect a negative response from the county's sheriff, who charged them with a misdemeanor when he discovered they had no deed.

But libertarians are not the only ones to use migration as a tool of control: the American Redoubt movement proposed conservative Christians move to Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and some parts of Washington and Oregon to build a haven for their ideas.
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December 16th, 2023 at 5:52:34 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
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These were very extreme Libertarians. The belief in no government at all is Anarchism

Wikipedia: Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is skeptical of all justifications for authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including nation-states, and capitalism.
I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]
December 16th, 2023 at 5:59:24 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 189
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Quote: odiousgambit
These were very extreme Libertarians. The belief in no government at all is Anarchism

Wikipedia: Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is skeptical of all justifications for authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including nation-states, and capitalism.


but limited government is just Republicans without the anti-freedom DeSantis-like Christian-like morality enacted. (IMO)
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December 16th, 2023 at 6:03:45 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 189
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BTw, I have no problem that the left also has anti-freedom. Just different . But even a "keep off the grass" sign is anti-freedom even if that's the only restriction.
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December 16th, 2023 at 6:29:41 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: odiousgambit
These were very extreme Libertarians. The belief in no government at all is Anarchism

Wikipedia: Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is skeptical of all justifications for authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including nation-states, and capitalism.


I agree with this.

They were Anarchists or pseudo-Anarchists. Libertarians have varying positions on everything; there's even a pro-life v. pro-choice (I think a small majority are pro-choice) split, but we don't demand strict ideological purity, so it's fine. We actually discuss things amongst ourselves civilly.

Another example is that some Libertarians would remove the Federal Minimum Wage, though I wouldn't. I'd do a steady increase over three years and then index it to inflation thereafter. I do think there should be some wage protections. Lots of employers have varying ways to get around (or just do something outright illegal) the minimum wage that's already in place.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
December 16th, 2023 at 6:35:32 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 189
Posts: 18762
Quote: Mission146
I agree with this.

They were Anarchists or pseudo-Anarchists. Libertarians have varying positions on everything; there's even a pro-life v. pro-choice (I think a small majority are pro-choice) split, but we don't demand strict ideological purity, so it's fine. We actually discuss things amongst ourselves civilly.

Another example is that some Libertarians would remove the Federal Minimum Wage, though I wouldn't. I'd do a steady increase over three years and then index it to inflation thereafter. I do think there should be some wage protections. Lots of employers have varying ways to get around (or just do something outright illegal) the minimum wage that's already in place.


You'd probably get called a LINO by them. Libertarian in name only. That's what extremists do when the don't like the more moderates of their wing.
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December 16th, 2023 at 6:40:26 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: rxwine
You'd probably get called a LINO by them. Libertarian in name only. That's what extremists do when the don't like the more moderates of their wing.


I have literally never heard (or saw) the term, 'LINO,' in my life. There are even people who call themselves Libertarian-Socialists, which seems oxymoronic to me, but we would not silence them or tell them we don't want them, in any way. We just try to explain to them that the end result of a small and unobtrusive government is, in effect, socially liberal and economically conservative.

Also, that's not a very common form of Libertarian. These were mostly people who were p!$$3D that Bernie didn't get the nomination, both in 2016 and 2020, but especially in 2016...then they came in talking about socialized medicine, government-paid tuition, the whole nine. Behind the scenes, (in our discussion places) we kind of figured they'd just leave on their own eventually, and they did. If they're so angry that they want to vote Libertarian, despite that they probably aren't in favor of what most Libertarians actually believe in, we're certainly not going to object to that.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
December 16th, 2023 at 6:40:41 AM permalink
GenoDRPh
Member since: Aug 24, 2023
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Quote: Mission146
I agree with this.

They were Anarchists or pseudo-Anarchists. Libertarians have varying positions on everything; there's even a pro-life v. pro-choice (I think a small majority are pro-choice) split, but we don't demand strict ideological purity, so it's fine. We actually discuss things amongst ourselves civilly.

Another example is that some Libertarians would remove the Federal Minimum Wage, though I wouldn't. I'd do a steady increase over three years and then index it to inflation thereafter. I do think there should be some wage protections. Lots of employers have varying ways to get around (or just do something outright illegal) the minimum wage that's already in place.


So if inflation goes down, you'd allow employers to reduce wages of existing employees?
December 16th, 2023 at 6:43:44 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: GenoDRPh
So if inflation goes down, you'd allow employers to reduce wages of existing employees?


First of all, employers can already reduce the wages of existing employees, I believe. Not if they're only making Minimum Wage, though.

The way I'd have it work would be similar to the way Social Security works now: The increase (if there was one) would be based on the inflation percentage from the previous year. If there was no increase, or we had a deflationary year, then nothing would change.

What I think would be very likely to happen is that many employers would follow suit, perhaps not for extremely high-paying jobs, but for lower-paid employees. They'd say, "Hey, you guys are good employees and MW is about to go up by 3%, because of inflation. We're already paying you more than Minimum Wage because you're good employees and we wanted to attract and retain you, therefore, we will be also be increasing your wages by 3%, across the board."
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
December 16th, 2023 at 6:44:42 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 189
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Quote: Mission146
I have literally never heard (or saw) the term, 'LINO,' in my life..


Well, someone has to modify the language to make some point or two. Might as well be me!
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