A modest proposal

For almost my entire life, the phrase a modest proposal had a very specific meaning. Without googling it, do you know what is meant by the phrase? It has come to my attention that not everyone interprets this phrase the same way.

Sorry, controversial subjects such as cannibalism or English political history were too interesting for the mandatory bland high school curriculum of the New Education I had to endure.

I had no idea someone saying this might be referring to what comes up by googling it.

Certainly in my experience people use the expression without intending to reference anything and are just wanting to be understood in the literal sense..

I know what it mean but would take it literally. I wouldn't assume that the other party had read

Quote: odiousgambit

Certainly in my experience people use the expression without intending to reference anything and are just wanting to be understood in the literal sense..

I've always thought that most people say something like "I have a simple idea" if they really want to change the plan in a minor way. The phrase "a modest proposal" is a little unusual for straightforward speech.

At work people used to always talk about a "strawman argument". If I look it up the term "Man of straw" meaning an "imaginary opponent" is found from 4 centuries ago. A hundred years ago a "strawman" was a device used in debates that an orator brought up, just to shoot it down himself. It gave more dramatic appeal than just going in with his primary idea immediately.

Whenever I've heard it used, I've always thought it was a face saving phrase. Someone proposes an idea which they think is good, but everyone else in the room hates it and starts to shoot holes in the proposal. The original person says "it was just a strawman" implying that he was simply trying to get the conversation started.

Actually I think the greater weight of authority for strawman is that when testimony had to be given "without slip or trip" (since only a liar would make mistakes) professional witnesses advertised their availability by the display of straw in a boot.

Strawman usually focuses less on a target to be attacked and more on a false identity.

I had never heard that etymology about the straw in the boot, but it is mentioned and referenced in the Wikipedia article.

Straw Man (British usage)
Straw Man Proposal (American business jargon)

The original essay for the modest proposal contained sentences like "”I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled ...” as he goes on to explain that selling children for food will both eliminate a mouth to feed and provide more money than begging.

Sometimes I think we use the term "a modest proposal" to include radical game changing ideas that are not necessarily sadistic.

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When there was more of a common culture among educated people, it was possible to evoke an entire range of thoughts and ideas with a simple phrase. One writer says his father would put a phrase in a business letter like "There is a tide..." confident that all of his readers knew what he meant.

The full quotation is:
There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.

So his father was basically saying that we have to strike now instead of waiting until we are better prepared. Of course, the phrase is full of ominous possibilities, as in the original play they struck early and were completely destroyed and had to commit suicide.

But without a common culture, it is no longer possible to evoke a range of emotions with a simple phrase.

Even common culture of vulgar jokes allows shorthand. Men in business meetings used to say "now it's your turn in the barrel" as most people knew the joke.

I always took it to mean 'in all modesty, I have a proposal'.
A non bragging way of saying you have an idea.

Quote: Pacomartin

When there was more of a common culture among educated people, .

Precisely. A business letter could indeed contain a literary reference, just as the person attending a cocktail or dinner party could comment on a subject and it would not be esoteric or offensive to anyone.

I recall a business memo that used the phrase Dramatis Personae and someone thought it an error. Or a typing test wherein "boon" had been crossed out and "boom" interlineated simply because most test takers and certainly the test examiner didn't know the meaning of the word 'boon'. I could hardly believe it when a coworker displayed ignorance of "Force Majeure".

I just wonder about "common culture" is a Texas town that had three newspapers but none of them published in English.
I wonder what a "common culture" was in Denver where silver millions brought opera houses, foreign stars, opulent foods and yet half the city ate common fare and it was not the practice to wash plates between patrons. What "common culture" was there in a mining camp filled with Australians, Russians, Chinese, Germans, etc, etc. What "common culture" existed prior to universal literacy? Immigrant transition was often a matter for taverns and neighborhoods were highly ethnic. You could own property in a German neighborhood or an Irish Neighborhood but heaven help you if you were on the borderline and both fire companies showed up: more fighting each other than the fire!

In Aviation, controllers use a defined vocabulary but there are problems with some pilots knowing "water tower" but not "water tank". A controller can get away with " you can put it on Fast Forward now" but probably should not try to. The "common culture" can be very much an illusion.

Quote:

"now it's your turn in the barrel" as most people knew the joke.

I got this one, at least I think I do ... no one ever explained it. I have been surprised to find people who use the expression but don't know where it evidently came from.

here is the joke I know:

Not Work-Safe Joke