Abortion

Quote: TheCesspit

Am I personally against the idea, or do I think they should be illegal? Two different questions.

Indeed, but it's not very common. Most people who are gainst think it should be illegal. And most people who are for it think it should be legal; in fact I fail to see how one could be for X and yet think X should be punishable by law.

You could be against something yet think it should be legal. That's my view on "drugs" for example.

Quote: Wizard

I think this topic deserves a more careful look at fetal development than that. A human life doesn't go from a clump of cells to viability overnight. Some view it as a sliding scale. As I said before, I view self awareness as the key indicator. We don't know exactly when that happens, but I would put it at 6 to 8 weeks.

At what point does one "become human"? Please back up your answer.

I think this is a really important point the Wizard is making. We don't really know when this "clump of cells" aka a developing human person becomes self-aware, feels pain, etc. Therefore when dealing with a potential human life I think we can only logically err on the side of extreme caution. If I gave you an envelope and said that it might contain a check for a million dollars I think you would treat it with great care until I said you can open it. We know for sure that at the end of nine months there will be a new human being born, who is worth more than a million, million dollars! Treat that little guy with extreme care from the moment of conception and we can't go horribly wrong by making the mistake of killing an innocent child because we guessed the wrong time on the sliding scale.

Quote: FrGamble

We don't really know when this "clump of cells" aka a developing human person becomes self-aware, feels pain, etc. Therefore when dealing with a potential human life I think we can only logically err on the side of extreme caution.

To begin with, "feeling pain" and "being self-aware" are different things. To continue, I can guarantee that a single cell, which is what a fertilized egg is, neither feels pain nor is self-aware. Yet the belief I assume you profess (and I stand ready to be corrected) is thata fertilized human egg is already a person. Or is there a differnt meaning to "Life begins at conception"?

Quote: Nareed

Indeed, but it's not very common. Most people who are gainst think it should be illegal. And most people who are for it think it should be legal; in fact I fail to see how one could be for X and yet think X should be punishable by law.

You could be against something yet think it should be legal. That's my view on "drugs" for example.

I don't agree. I know people who would never get an abortion who also don't think it should be made illegal. Which is why I asked the question. The -choice- part of 'pro-choice' is the important part. Much like the life part is part of pro-life.

Is a fertlized ova 'life'. At which point does someone have a choice.

I believe people should have a choice up to a certain stage of pregnancy (where 20 weeks is much too late, IMHO). I am not a woman, so hard to make a stance on someone else's body, but I also think that the -potential- for life is an important consideration. However, potential is different from actual.

Yeah with me and what I believe it is a little more complicated than if someone is self-aware or feels pain (I agree, two different things) because I would argue an adult with dementia or in a coma who is not self-aware should not be killed or if someone cannot any longer feel pain they still deserve to live. For me what makes someone human and deserving of all the dignity that comes with that is not based on age, stage of development, awareness, intellect, illness, sexual idenity, race, or any other thing. What makes us human is that you are a miracle uniquely created by God and in God's image. From a fertilized egg on through your natural death you are a person whose life should be respected and reverenced.

Quote: TheCesspit

I don't agree. I know people who would never get an abortion who also don't think it should be made illegal.

I've known no such people.

That by itself proves nothing. I think they're rare, because of the usual objections to abortion. Of course, they may object on grounds other than they think it's equal to murder.

Quote:

Is a fertlized ova 'life'. At which point does someone have a choice.

Life is a problematic standard. Sure, an embryo is living. So is a sperm cell. So is a tumor.

People may consider what other people do not to have to be held to their own standards.

Quote: FrGamble

Yeah with me and what I believe it is a little more complicated than if someone is self-aware or feels pain (I agree, two different things) because I would argue an adult with dementia or in a coma who is not self-aware should not be killed or if someone cannot any longer feel pain they still deserve to live.

No offense, but you're pointing out the obvious. A person under anesthesia neither feels pain nor is self-aware (or at least is not conscious). But that has nothing to do with anything.

Quote:

What makes us human is that you are a miracle uniquely created by God and in God's image. From a fertilized egg on through your natural death you are a person whose life should be respected and reverenced.

Except that's only a belief. You cannot impose your beleifs on others.

Quote: TheCesspit

I know people who would never get an abortion who also don't think it should be made illegal.

Quote: Nareed

I've known no such people.

Nearly everyone I know, myself included, feel as TheCesspit indicated. I think it's a very common way of viewing the issue and I'm surprised that you've never know such people.

Quote: TheCesspit

People may consider what other people do not to have to be held to their own standards.

The point is that knwoing or not knowing people with X view is not relevant to how many people hold such a view. it's like the movie critic who was surprised that Reagan won in 1980, because no one she knew voted for him.

The one objection I've heard agaisnt abortion is that it's murder. I cannot see someone thinking "I'm personally against killing babies in the womb, but I don't object if other people do so."

Oh, there are secondary objections, usually as wrong, about health concerns. And some, more valid, about psychological concerns. But these are usually presente das secondary.

Anyway, what is your view? Why do you find abortion wrong yet think it should be legal? That's something that can more profitably be discussed than how many people think what things.