Traditional vs. Contemporary Mass

Quote: FrGamble

AZDuffman I hear and feel your post about killing the mystique of the Mass. It could probably be another thread and while I personally lament the loss of Latin and Ad Orientum I do recognize that the new way of celebrating Mass is more appealing and engaging for the people of today. Pope Francis has certainly embraced it. I just watched his Holy Thursday Mass and I never ever thought I would see a Pope celebrating Mass the way he did in that little chapel with those dear elderly disabled folks. While the liturgical mystique is missing the mystery of unconditional love is certainly present.

OK, why not a new thread?!

First, I was born after Vatican II which was (Help me here, Padre) in the late 1960s IIRC. Like any overhaul of a big institution, lost of what they did took time to implement. Having Mass in the local language was probably easiest because, well you don't need to learn your own language.

On one hand, the elders in my family used to talk about how great it was and they finally understood things. As I don't remember it I always assumed the Reading(s), Gospel, and Homily were in English and the prayers in Latin. They said it was all Latin all the time, maybe the Our Father in English. They said they never knew what was going on, you just showed up, knew the flow, waited for the bells to ring, and so forth. English changed all that.

In one Church in Pittsburgh the simply refused to drop the Latin Mass. They were famous for it. One family traveled 100 miles to go there for Mass! Think about that, you are talking 5 hours with travel time.

The Diocese and Probably Vatican were not happy with this at all. But amazingly they could not stop it! Imagine a McDonald's that decides to switch to Pepsi, and McDonald's cannot stop it. (yes, I know one did.) Bishop says, "Knock this off!" Parish says, "Make me!" In the end, what are you going to do? If the property is titled in the parish and not diocese name your hands are tied. You could excommunicate the priests, but the congregation might decide they answer to a higher power and not care. Most items for Mass like communion wafers and candles can be purchased on the open market. The Vatican doesn't want that happening, so they put up with it. This went on until consolidation closed the parish, I have no idea what happened to them after.

OTOH, lots of people didn't "get a lot" from a Mass they didn't understand. But they showed up. I've heard of older women complaining that they didn't like the English because they can't concentrate on saying the Rosary, while the Latin was more like background music of sorts. One one hand, they can say the Rosary at home. On the other, they showed up and felt fulfilled.


I still say the Latin made some differene. I can't beleive even 10% of priests could make a Homily that made sense in Latin. I don't think the Reading(s) and Gospel should ever have been in Latin. At the lease, the prayer/response segments. Think about it, how many people just mumble the english. When you have the Latin, it gives that air of importance I was saying about. You think, "hey, here is an important part."

By making it all less formal it has become nothing important to many.

I remember when all that started, when priests
and nuns started playing guitars and dressing
differently. A lot of Catholics were very dismayed.
A religion has to have mystique or it's useless
on the unwashed rabble.

Pomp and circumstance.

Jevah hear a bailiff cry a court to order. Often on TV "Oyez, Oyez, Oyez, all persons having business before this court draw near and give your attention for the court is now in session.

That Oyez stuff is FRENCH and even the Old Bailey is formally known as the Court of Oyez and Termine for the Central District.

So why does the US Supreme Court and the English court system use FRENCH? After 1066, English courts were conducted in French for quite some time. They sure are not in French now.

Yet tradition continues. England still has this Your Worship, Your Lordship stuff with white wigs and black hankie if a death sentence is to be pronounced.

The Catholic Church? As with anything else its a large cumbersome bureaucracy and any institution jealous of its powers wants to avoid risk particuarly the risk if change.

Fish on Fridays... or at least Meatless? Heck,,, most of that stuff was originally adopted when the church was weak and had to bow to local authorities in England that wanted to support local industry. Had nothing to do with diet or health or religion or anything but Support Your Local Politician's Whimsical Decree. Seaports wanted fisheries to prosper and forbidding people to buy or transport meat does wonders.

S o eventually institutions change. New language, kick the wig thing, drop that fourteen inch paper and carry on with whatever powers remain.

I'm not sure just what churches do but they seem to oppress both the rich and the poor and usually that is a neat trick. I guess the rich are not rich enough to fight effectively. The poor probably just try to get on the gravy train.

Sommerset Maugham had the right idea: When the janitor was found to be illiterate, the church kicked him out and he became a tobacconist, soon opening several similar tobacco shops. When he had to make his will, the lawyer was astounded when he "made his mark" instead of signing his name and asked the millionaire tobacconist what he would have been if he could read and write: "A janitor in a church".

Now a days the old Latin Mass is making somewhat of a comeback, but mostly with young people surprisingly enough. Thanks to Pope Benedict XVI any priest at any time can pretty much celebrate the Mass in what is called the extraordinary form (aka Latin Mass) without having to ask permission to do so. Now of course this Mass is pretty difficult and requires a fairly good grasp of Latin and lots of memorization and lots of very strict movements. I have a few friends who know how to do it and celebrate it mostly privately or with a small group. They have found it personally spiritually enriching. I don't know how to do the old Mass but I do like that in the old Mass the priest faced the altar not the people.

Facing the altar helps the priest to become more anonymous and makes it less about you and more about God. Sometimes you kind of feel like you are on stage and are too much the focal point of the Liturgy. I realize that for the readings and the homily you would be still facing the people, but for the Eucharistic prayer it would be nice to really focus on this the true high point of the Mass without making sure you have proper eye contact with everyone and are smiling.

Vatican II's reforms were all about getting the people in the pews to become full, conscious, and active participators in the Mass.

Quote: FrGamble

Vatican II's reforms were all about getting the people in the pews to become full, conscious, and active participators in the Mass.

You mean the church needed donations.

Quote: FrGamble

Facing the altar helps the priest to become more anonymous and makes it less about you and more about God. Sometimes you kind of feel like you are on stage and are too much the focal point of the Liturgy. I realize that for the readings and the homily you would be still facing the people, but for the Eucharistic prayer it would be nice to really focus on this the true high point of the Mass without making sure you have proper eye contact with everyone and are smiling.

I forgot about how they said the priest faced the altar. Not sure if they always did or did it just during Eucharistic portion, but your idea seems best of both worlds. Facing the altar during a reading a little silly and during the Homily it is counterproductive. Besides your eye-contact point, it seems it brings the priest down to the level of the people for this segment. Sort of a "we are all facing the same way and God is the one in charge, I just happen to be doing the talking" kind of thing.

Quote:

Vatican II's reforms were all about getting the people in the pews to become full, conscious, and active participators in the Mass.

Hence what I mentioned about ladies saying Rosaries instead of learning the Latin. But I will wager something. I will wager the priest faced the congregation way, way back. And then at some point someone had the idea he face away for perhaps the very reasons you suggested. After 1,000 years everyone forgot why they started this, and Vatican II changed it.

EvenBob's pic says it all to me.