Simple question?

Quote: rxwine

Wouldn't heaven have an inordinately large number of serious criminal offenders, murderers, rapists, serial killers?

I guess about the same as you find here.

What I wonder is how a religious ideology claims to be the supreme arbiter of morality, when any actions, no matter how heinous, can be overlooked if the perpetrator "repents" to a third party.

If there are miracles, it's a real miracle any Christians can act morally despite their faith.

Quote: Nareed

That's a good start.

When will it begin?

It began at the cross.

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You're joking, right?

Back in the day if you had a smart educated person going through towns preaching for example that Catholics worship Mary there was no way to discover the truth objectively and find out that this preacher was wrong. Even if you had the internet the vast majority of people were illiterate and uneducated. Today a quick look at catholic.com or reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church will dispel such falsities. Of course back in that day as well the crown would take it as a direct attack on them if you attacked the Church so you were also committing treason, which is still punishable by death today.

Quote: FrGamble

It began at the cross.

Seriously. When does it start?

Quote: rxwine

Another simple question.

Wouldn't heaven have an inordinately large number of serious criminal offenders, murderers, rapists, serial killers?

Many of these people knew the day of their death when they were executed which gave them the chance to just go ahead and get their free pass into Heaven.

Everyone in Heaven is a former sinner. I'm curious what you mean by a "free pass". Do you reckon that there is no need for true conversion and repentance?

Quote: Nareed

I guess about the same as you find here.

What I wonder is how a religious ideology claims to be the supreme arbiter of morality, when any actions, no matter how heinous, can be overlooked if the perpetrator "repents" to a third party.

If there are miracles, it's a real miracle any Christians can act morally despite their faith.

No actions are "overlooked" but all actions can be forgiven. Forgiveness is what destroys the power of evil actions from the past to continue to haunt and oppress us. It allows us to move forward without being consumed by hatred and an unhelpful desire for vengeance that just changes us to look like our enemies.

You continue to consider repentance as just a private action between God and a person. It is much more than that. It is a real change in the person and a healthy desire to make amends if possible. Ultimately, I think we all know that outside of a time machine there is really no way to make appropriate amends. My death doesn't bring back your son, my restitution doesn't take away the times of want and frustration, my apologize doesn't erase the hurt. What I think is miraculous is that anyone could think that outside of the miracle of repentance and forgiveness that we as individuals or as a society can move forward. This constant desire for some type of exacting revenge and eye for an eye mentality just leaves the whole world blind.

Quote: FrGamble

No actions are "overlooked" but all actions can be forgiven.

"It is against the sin of forgiveness that I wanted to warn you."

I just love that line.

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Forgiveness is what destroys the power of evil actions from the past to continue to haunt and oppress us.

It frightens me that adult people with full possession of their rational faculties believe such claptrap.

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You continue to consider repentance as just a private action between God and a person.

Well, suppose Joe kills Bill. explain how Joe repents and gains forgiveness from Bill in this world?

I'm not even going to pretend to wait for an answer.

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This constant desire for some type of exacting revenge and eye for an eye mentality just leaves the whole world blind.

What revenge?

You believe in a deity who'd torture people for not believing in him, but would reward a rapist and a murderer who repents.

I don't care about punishing people after they die because it's impossible to do so. Once you're dead, there's nothing left of you to punish (there is something left of you, as I've pointed out before, but nothing that can perceive, much less feel).

What's most wrong with your whole set of beliefs, and those of other religions, is that people matter most to you when they no longer exist. And even then you ascribe tremendous importance to nonsense, and overlook (or "forgive") heinous acts. In other words, your moral priorities are all FUBAR.

Quote: Nareed

Well, suppose Joe kills Bill. explain how Joe repents and gains forgiveness from Bill in this world?

I'm not even going to pretend to wait for an answer.

What frightens me is that thinking people believe that there is no way that Joe can find forgiveness, repent, and change his life. I'm not saying that you would think that because it just seems so strange, but surely you don't think that Joe is doomed and will never find forgiveness in this life (or the next). To attempt to answer your question I would say that Joe would need to recognize that God's love calls him to accept responsibility for his sin, accept his worldly punishment, and change his life to serve the community and reject violence in all its forms.

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You believe in a deity who'd torture people for not believing in him,

I most certainly reject in the strongest way possible such a deity! I do believe in a loving God who is constantly calling us to reject ways of hatred and violence and to love and serve others. I believe in God who respects our freedom and the choices we make, even the choice to reject love and choose to live forever separated from the source of all goodness and life. We torture ourselves, it is God who strives to free us from this.

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I don't care about punishing people after they die because it's impossible to do so.

I don't really care about punishing people after they die either. However, I am for rewarding people after they die and correcting injustices and wrongs for those who suffered from them.

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What's most wrong with your whole set of beliefs, and those of other religions, is that people matter most to you when they no longer exist. And even then you ascribe tremendous importance to nonsense, and overlook (or "forgive") heinous acts. In other words, your moral priorities are all FUBAR.

Everything that happens after we die is predicated on how we live and care for each other while we live. What is really FUBAR is thinking that there is no real importance to heinous acts, that in the end it doesn't really matter how well or poorly you lived. That is simply nonsense and I seriously doubt you or anyone really holds to such a sick morality.

Quote: FrGamble

What frightens me is that thinking people believe that there is no way that Joe can find forgiveness, repent, and change his life.

How will a dead Bill forgive Joe? Can you provide even a highly improbable mechanism by which a dead man can forgive his murderer?

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but surely you don't think that Joe is doomed and will never find forgiveness in this life (or the next).

I surely believe it's impossible for the dead to forgive the living. I also believe it's impossible for the dead to dance a jig, compose a symphony or expose Apple for a cult, among a literal infinity of other things.

Let me put it this way: how many people did you forgive before you were born?

And I certainly do not believe there is any kind of "next life."

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To attempt to answer your question

You mean "To attempt to evade your question"

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I most certainly reject in the strongest way possible such a deity!

If I didn't know any better, I'd welcome you to the spiritually satisfying realm of reason. Alas...

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However, I am for rewarding people after they die

That's like being in favor of preventing the extinction of unicorns. You could use up all the resources on Earth and you would be as far from achieving your goal as if you'd done nothing.

Since you disagree, I have plans for a perpetual motion machine I'd be willing to sell.

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Everything that happens after we die

Nothing happens to you after you die because there won't be a you for things to happen to.

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What is really FUBAR is thinking that there is no real importance to heinous acts, that in the end it doesn't really matter how well or poorly you lived. That is simply nonsense and I seriously doubt you or anyone really holds to such a sick morality.

So you agree Christian morality is all screwed up?

After all, someone who murders one person each day is as deserving of your non-existent reward, if they repent, as a surgeon who saves a life every day. Hell, more deserving than an atheist surgeon who saves two lives every day.

Quote: Nareed

You believe in a deity who'd torture people for not believing in him, but would reward a rapist and a murderer who repents.

Yup.

In the New Testament Jesus said it would be more bearable on the day of judgment for Sodom than for Capernaum because of Capernaum’s unbelief and refusal to repent after witnessing His miracles (Matthew 11:23-24).

Quote: rxwine

Yup.

In the New Testament Jesus said it would be more bearable on the day of judgment for Sodom than for Capernaum because of Capernaum’s unbelief and refusal to repent after witnessing His miracles (Matthew 11:23-24).

23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[a] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

Jesus is threatening the city of Capernaum with
eternal damnation if they don't wise up and
realize who he is. Because Capernaum was given
a chance to see Jesus in person, and Sodom
wasn't, Sodom will fare better in the end if Capernaum
doesn't wise up.

It's the typical Christian threat, do what I say or
you'll be eternally punished. It's a way to control
people, to keep them under you thumb. Jesus
never said this or anything like it. This is Paul
talking, or one of Paul's followers. This is the
Pauline message, Jesus would have been appalled
that it's being attributed to him.