Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

we want to heroically sacrifice for others,

Quote: Nareed

Hell, no.

Interesting choice of words.

Quote: aceofspades

For each of us, perfection holds a different meaning so absolute perfection, for each of us, consists of entirely different things...

I was going to say that perfection is subjective. Perfection can be achieving a goal or perfection can be not achieving the goal but doing the best that you can to get there. Perhaps I'm setting my personal bar too low but I don't strive to be perfect, I strive to do the best that I can.

Quote: FrGamble

you may be taking this original sin thing too literally

Major problem with this, Father G, as it exposes some of the contradictions in the Catholic thinking. There's a whole ecosystem surrounding the concept - limbo (I know you debunked this but the Sisters of Mercy formed the thought processes of innocent children around this belief), the sacrament of Baptism which "washes away" original sin. Hoist by your own petard if now the argument is: "Nevermind, we were just kidding, it's only a metaphor"

Good point my main man chicken - I am not in any way saying that original sin is only a metaphor!!! The profound story we read in Genesis does not have to be read literally for it to pass on the reality and truth of what it is saying. We were made perfect and destined to be perfect with God, but we have been weakened through sin that is now part and parcel of the human condition. We long for something we cannot any longer attain on our own which is why we need God to wash away this original sin and trust in His perfection and be our Savior.

Quote: s2dbaker

Perhaps I'm setting my personal bar too low...

That right there is what I am talking about. You've given voice to the little whisper in all of us that hearkens back to what we truly are as human beings - made in the image and likeness of God. There is more to us and we know it somehow deep within.

Original sin is that which keeps us from reaching and that maintaining that subjective perfection. As you correctly note we realize that the best we can hope for here on earth is not perfection but to strive to do the best we can. What more could be asked of this than this; do the best you can. However, do you notice that as you strive to do just that your best keeps getting better and better?

Quote: FrGamble

Like s2dbaker you may be taking this original sin thing too literally, it's not about a talking snake or about being unashamed in our nakedness. It is about wrestling with our weakness and wondering why I feel ashamed about my inability to be perfect or to even stop desiring to be perfect. Why do I keep trying to be a better version of myself? What is it inside of me that whispers, like a story long forgotten, that I was made for something more?

Ambition - but it is not universal. There are plenty of people I know who have zero ambition or desire to better themselves…rather, they look to society to keep them afloat, never attempting to grasp at the golden ring.

Quote: FrGamble

Interesting choice of words.

Thank you.

Very deliberate, too.

Quote: aceofspades

Ambition - but it is not universal.

This.

FrG, your comment about the pursuit of perfection, specifically, the cause of that inside us, has kept me busy thinking since you said it. I didn't know what to say as, unlike the desire to "do good", I couldn't reconcile it with my atheist beliefs. But I think Ace sort of broke it loose.

There is certainly a desire to do better. To "be perfect", for lack of a better term (not only do I think perfection is impossible, I don't believe it exists). But it isn't universal. In fact, I think it is rare indeed.

I think Nareed nailed it. There's a certain set of people who are insatiably driven toward it, and these people are often the greats (Edison, Whitney, etc) or the horribles (Mao, Hitler, etc). People who can't stop driving, can't stop pushing. People with that hunger.

But I think that is more the exception than the norm. I still think we all mostly desire to be good, but I think the majority if not the vast majority yearn to be "good enough". To be comfortable.

I know Nareed takes cooking seriously. But I can't imagine her pouring over chemistry literature to determine exactly the perfect process of breaking down the amino acids in her meat for that perfect filet, or using Walter White levels of specific temps and amounts for her sauces.

I, too, have passions. Right now, it's my racing. I'm taking it very seriously, I think it'd be fair to say I've crossed over into the land of obsession. I've worked tirelessly to fill myself with the knowledge to build an entire race car, and I've done nearly every bit of it by myself. I know exactly what I want and am fighting my way through making it happen. I have to, I have to try my best. But on the flip side, I'm still doing things "good enough". I just did a complete engine swap completely on my own, with not even an extra hand to hold a flashlight. I'm DAMN proud of how far I've come. But I'm still just doing "good enough". I'm not rehoning and rebalancing flywheels, or acid washing and retapping bolt holes, or using torque wrenches to attach things at the precise ft/lbs required. I'd like for it to be done, I just don't desire to do it.

I think the vast majority is just the same. All differing levels of what's good enough for them. For some, it is low indeed. For others, it is high enough to become a Great. But the obvious fact that it's not universal, to me, kind of throws a wrench into your belief of the cause.

Quote: FrGamble

Original sin is that which keeps us from reaching and that maintaining that subjective perfection.

Round and round we go: so Baptism doesn't absolve us of original sin? The obvious contradictions keep the whole story from being taken seriously.

Quote: FrGamble

As you know "sin" in Hebrew means "missing the mark". That is how it enters into this discussion. We miss the mark and yes we do often settle for mediocrity or the status quo, but it never really leaves a good taste in our mouths.

I'd no idea there was a Hebrew word for "sin," actually.

But, really, I don't think it's used as meaning "missing the mark" in religion, if it was ever used that way.

Quote:

What I mean by unconditional is not a one sided abuse situation, where one person takes advantage of another.

I admire your persistence, and your creativity, if not your insistence on making words mean different things than what they actually mean. "Unconditional" means "without conditions." If you love someone unconditionally, this implies you love them the same whether they achieve great goals or sink to great depravity.

There's a line in "We The Living," I don't recall whether in the movie or the book, when Kira realizes Leo has given up and she leaves him. She says "You don't stop loving someone just because they're dead." When she says this Leo is still quite alive, but the man she loved, the hopeful, dashing youngster willing to risk his life, such as it was in Soviet Russia, for his goals, is gone; effectively he's dead.

Quote:

What we all want is to be loved for our gifts but also loved through our imperfections, that is what I mean when I talk about unconditional love.

If you love someone you will overllok any number of things which are reasonable to overlook. trivial details which you may find annoying, for example, and even non-trivial traits you don't like. But "imperfections" is too broad a term to take seriously as a measure.