Original Sin?

Quote: Dalex64

How can a newborn baby be anything less than perfect?.

No no no, you can't approach it that way, with
logic. You have to approach it with science
and observation. It's obvious the universe
isn't here for moral reasons, that's just absurd.

The single biggest problem the Spanish monks
had when they got to Calif for the first time, was
convincing the natives they were born in sin.
It was a completely intellectual concept and there
was no way to prove it. To the natives it sounded
preposterous, but the priests were so adamant that
they went along with it till the priests left. As soon
as they were gone, they reverted to their old ways.

Original sin is snake oil at it's worst, a hard sell unless
you can get to the non believers early, which is
what the priests ended up doing. Getting to the children
and indoctrinating them when they were toddlers.

It is not really that hard to convince or prove to anyone that they are sinful. What is hard to convince people of is that they are not meant to stay that way. Original sin is the concept that we have inherited a weakness in humanity (again not a personal sin so you can't really say "born in sin") but that this weakness is not who we are. Original sin points to our original perfection!

This is not a hard sell to anyone, especially adults who feel both the burden of their sins and the desire in their hearts to be better. The fact that the native people of the Americas, especially Central and South America, did not abandon this comforting and compassionate idea the priests were so passionate about is found in the strength of the Church throughout Latin America.

Quote: FrGamble

It is nothing the child did wrong; it is the brokenness of humanity they are born into.

If this original sin contaminates everybody, then wouldn't Jesus then also not be perfect? If you say that his case is an exception, because the Virgin Mary was sinless, then I would ask the question question about her.

One of the big trivia questions for Catholics or anyone is what does the Immaculate Conception refer to? Quite a few people always say that it refers to Jesus's conception. However, the Immaculate Conception is meant to precisely answer this good question you pose. Obviously Jesus, being God is not born with original sin. Mary however is a different case. In order to prepare a perfect vessel for Jesus to dwell and enter into this world she received something called preveniant (sp?) grace. This basically means that she was able to experience at her conception the freedom from original sin that God will bring about through Jesus. She got the preview or I should say the advance screening of Jesus' sacrifice so that she could be preserved from sin and be the worthy womb to carry Our Lord.

I think this is better explained by the title of Mary as the New Eve and Jesus as the New Adam. Eve remember was created without original sin and so was Adam. Eve came from Adam's body. So now the tape is basically playing in reverse: an immaculate conceived (meaning free from original sin) woman brings forth from her body a new Adam who instead of ushering in sin and death this new Adam, Jesus, brings freedom and life eternal. It is a return to the Garden of Eden and a new way for us to return there as well.

Quote: FrGamble

One of the big trivia questions for Catholics or anyone is what does the Immaculate Conception refer to? Quite a few people always say that it refers to Jesus's conception. .

The fact that you have to concoct all
this trivial nonsense to explain something
that's made up to begin with, shows what
an utter canard it is. If you don't have somebody
tell you that there is original sin, you would
have no way of knowing it.

It can't be proven, isn't obvious, isn't detectable
in any way either by deduction or logic or
science. It was made up entirely to sell a religion.
Why this isn't obvious to most religious people
is the real Great Mystery. You choose to wear
a millstone around your necks that is pure fantasy.

Quote: FrGamble

However, the Immaculate Conception is meant to precisely answer this good question you pose. Obviously Jesus, being God is not born with original sin. Mary however is a different case.

Quote: Dr. Robert Stackpole

The Immaculate Conception is really the supreme manifestation of God's prevenient, unmerited Mercy. After all, Mary did not "merit" her Immaculate Conception. Nor could she ask for it. It was something done in her and for her by the Father of Mercy, and solely on the basis of the foreseen merits of his incarnate Son, Jesus Christ. As Pope John Paul II wrote in His encyclical "Dives in misericordia" (Rich in Mercy), section 9: "Mary is the one who experienced mercy in an exceptional way-as no one else."

It should be noted that the Immaculate Conception is Catholic dogma. The formal pronouncement of Mary's Immaculate Conception by the Catholic Church was in 1854,

1) Anglicanism: Belief in Mary's immaculate conception is not a doctrine within Anglicanism, although it is shared by many Anglo-Catholics.
2) Eastern and Oriental Orthodox say that Mary was without sin for her entire life, but they object to the dogmatic declaration of her immaculate conception.
3) Martin Luther, who initiated the Protestant Reformation, said: "Mary is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil." But in 1532 he denied Mary's immaculate conception, declaring: "Mary is conceived in sin just like us." However, some Lutherans, such as the members of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, support the doctrine.
4) Most Protestants reject the doctrine because the Immaculate Conception is not taught in the Bible.

Quote: Pacomartin

3) Martin Luther, who initiated the Protestant Reformation, said: "Mary is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil." But in 1532 he denied Mary's immaculate conception, declaring: "Mary is conceived in sin just like us." .

It gets confusing when you have to make
up the rules for something that doesn't
exist. It turns into a circus, which it's been
from the start.

Quote: FrGamble

One of the big trivia questions for Catholics or anyone is what does the Immaculate Conception refer to?

Gracias, padre! I also thought the Immaculate Conception referred to Jesus' conception. Now I have a trivia question for Catholics. If they disagree with me then I'll send them your way.

If I may change the topic a bit, in the name of humor, they were joking on a radio show I like (Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me) about how the Pope recently used the Italian equivalent of the F word, accidentally of course. They couldn't say the F word on the radio so they said what he said was "The Immaculate Conception without the Immaculate part."

That's pretty funny - now I wish I could understand what the Immaculate Conception minus the Immaculate part Evenbob is talking about in some of these posts - can't you censor him or something? :-)

Just kidding Bob I know you by now and luv ya.

Between the trinity, the immaculate conception and the original sin, I'm convinced George Orwell modeled Double-Think on Christian writings.