Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

God is friend who truly loves us.

That would be my dog. Fictitious
characters like gods don't love
anybody.

Quote: FrGamble

This is close to the stupidest thing you have ever written. Who has this been proven to? .

Pretty much everybody who has a reasoning
brain. For over 100 years study after study
has been done that involved praying for the
sick. Some of these studies cost millions of
dollars. Every single one of them produced
the exact same results. The prayed for got
well at the same rate as the unprayed for.
You always act so surprised at this, it's about
the 20th time I've brought it up.

Face has said he tried the prayer experiment
for almost a year recently and got nothing for
all his trouble. Or have you conveniently forgotten
that also.

Lets go back to what Jesus supposedly said:

Matthew 21:22

New International Version
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

New Living Translation
You can pray for anything, and if you have faith, you will receive it."

English Standard Version
And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

Berean Study Bible
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask in prayer."

Berean Literal Bible
And all things, as many as you might ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

New American Standard Bible
"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

King James Bible
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Christian Standard Bible
And if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

This is total baloney, it's not true at all.
In fact, the exact opposite is usually
what's true. You won't get what you
pray for the majority of the time. Why
would you.

Quote: Evenbob

Pretty much everybody who has a reasoning
brain. For over 100 years study after study
has been done that involved praying for the
sick. Some of these studies cost millions of
dollars. Every single one of them produced
the exact same results.

Again I am flabbergasted at you and your exaggerations and how easily you fall for the things you want to fall for. Pretty much everybody who has a reasoning brain huh? Do you really believe that no one with reason thinks prayer is valuable or effective? I think you have quoted for one maybe two studies about prayer and you make it seem like this is something that has been studied many times. How is it studied? How do you have a control group? How do you know the will of God and whether prayer was answered or not? What do you think science can measure in regards to the spiritual reality of prayer?

It also shows an egregious misunderstanding of prayer and the teachings of Christ. I would be embarrassed if I was you and wondering to myself if I really believed that the point of prayer was about getting whatever I asked for? Are a little child? Do you think that this one line you have ripped from the NT summarizes the whole of Jesus' teaching on prayer? If you do then you have a 4 year old's understanding of prayer and God and that might explain a lot.

Quote:

Face has said he tried the prayer experiment
for almost a year recently and got nothing for
all his trouble. Or have you conveniently forgotten
that also.

Is that really what he said? Maybe you should re-read his post?

Quote: FrGamble

I do use words and I reckon you do too. Surely you see there is a difference between testimony and gossip and surely you also see their connection.

To a non religiously indoctrinated person, with what I consider moral beliefs, it appears that all the Christian churches have their own version of what the bible actually says or means.

And as pragmatical laypeople, it bugs us that there are so many versions [of the bible] and each person telling the story is adamant, that their version is the correct one. Your betters must scramble to control the narrative.

Where as my belief, that if you, you personally, want to do the most good, you should shift as fast as you can into the void left by Billy Graham. Pronto. The vacuum will be filled. You can do your own personal most good by reaching the most people, not hiding out with some like minded wine making monks in obscurity. How convenient is that? That tells me you are like everyone else, and just in it for your own benefit. Heck, I could hang out in a monastery with head phones for awhile. No problemo. If you do go over to that side, consider renting rooms out as a side hack, to vetted people. Good opportunity for some funds, to people who promise to be quiet and not break anything.

I do not get how you can try to appear so sure of your version and discount Joseph Smith's? It doesn't grok. When some innocent person wanders along and run's into Catholicism and reads up on the church's history, what appears evident, is your faith are a violent, controlling bunch. So are the Mormons. But they are not in the same league.

The Navajo story of first man/woman doesn't demand torture and sacrifice, as was done in the church of England. All these belief systems seem like people trying to feel welcome in a group, which is the same thing as being tribal. We do it because there is safety in numbers. It's perfectly understandable why someone wants to be surrounded by like minded individuals, even if they have to perform and occasional chant or bow or secret handshake to let others believe, you are with them.

You must know, when most leave church, their attributions to Christianity were left in the parking lot on their way to their lives.

We support the Lyons club of America and Red cross, the VFW and other charitable organizations, but I don't see God. If he was there, he would make an appearance at least every few hundred years. People are weak, with short memories, and the bible story changes.

Here's another thing that irks. The greatest lies are those of omission. Priests, pastors, ministers all, they will let an untruth go by unchallenged if it furthers their agenda. Just like you don't correct, for the stories of the bible that aren't supposed [now] to be taken literally. It is favor by false pretenses.

Quote: FrGamble

....It also shows an egregious misunderstanding of prayer and the teachings of Christ. I would be embarrassed if I was you and wondering to myself if I really believed that the point of prayer was about getting whatever I asked for?

I thought you did pray for the things you want? Do you pray for the things you don't want?

Isn't every single prayer in some manner, to benefit the person praying? Even if the request is for someone you never met? When people pray for someone else, they do it because it makes them feel better. Same reason people throw a buck in the red kettle, even though they should realize 90% goes to management, they do it because it feels good to be able to be generous.

Petition/supplication, or asking for something is not synonymous with prayer. There is also adoration, contrition, and thanksgiving. Again it might be helpful to look at prayer as a conversation or friendship with God.

Quote: FrGamble

.... There is also adoration, contrition, and thanksgiving.

I'm still saying, that those doing the praying are doing it for their own benefit.

Quote: FrGamble

What do you think science can measure in regards to the spiritual reality of prayer?

As far as healing the sick, the results
are undeniably dismal. For a test on
there being a god that answers
prayers, it proves rather conclusively
that no such god exists.

Quote: FrGamble

if I really believed that the point of prayer was about getting whatever I asked for?

MARK 11:24 NKJ 24 "Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

John 14:14, “You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”

" Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them."

It really goes on and on, it's crystal clear
what it means. It's also clear from the
prayer studies done that prayer is a farce,
you don't get what you ask for, not even
close. But Xtions have volumes of reasons
for this monumental failure of prayer, of
which I am not at all interested in. Excuses
bore the crap out of me.

Quote: FrGamble

it might be helpful to look at prayer as a conversation or friendship with God.

Or just you talking to yourself. A form
of self help therapy. A fictitious god
has nothing to do with it.

Quote: petroglyph

I'm still saying, that those doing the praying are doing it for their own benefit.

Yes, I do feel a sense of peace and purpose when I pray for others or when I adore the Lord, ask for His forgiveness, and thank Him for His love. It does benefit me and it benefits others as well. I know first hand how I've been helped by others' prayers for me. God is so good!

Quote: FrGamble

Yes, I do feel a sense of peace and purpose

It's just a form of meditation and has nothing
to do with god. You get the same thing by
practicing TM (transcendental meditation).
Jerry Seinfeld has done TM every day for
20 years and says it's helped him a lot.