Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

Make it fair, say it's
a lion. You are on the lions menu, he would
love to have you for lunch. Is that wrong?
Not to the lion, or to the impartial universe.
There are no ethics in nature, the universe is
not an ethical place. We invent the rules and
then religion pretends they exist outside of
us. They don't.

Lions eating a human being is not morally wrong, it's what they do. But is it a tragedy? Of course it is. Ask yourself why do we feel called to invent or follow ethical rules? Do you honestly think it would be better if we had no morality besides nature's survival of the fittest? I pray the answer is no and that you think our ethical morality is a good thing.

Quote:

That's fine, but it doesn't change the truth. It
just makes it easier for those who have no chance
at handling the truth. Those that would not survive
if it wasn't for the kindness of the survivors. At
one time we couldn't afford such charity and we
let the weak perish. If we didn't, we ourselves would
not have made it. It's only been very recently in
human development that we've been able to be
so charitable, it hasn't been the norm in our history
by a long shot.

Again scary stuff. You sound like Scrooge when in response to a request for charity he says the poor have the prisons and workhouses where many people would rather die than go there he says, "If they'd rather die, then they had better do it and decrease the surplus population. Good night, gentlemen. Humbug!"
You also are dead wrong. Charity has been the norm of human society since the get go. We never would have gotten very far without it. A community caring for each other and helping each other out is essential for human beings. Over 2,000 years ago Jesus Christ knew this when he counseled use to treat our neighbor as ourselves. We wouldn't have lasted long as a species without charity and kindness to each other. Selfishness kills human beings, spiritually and physically. Really you would be much more correct is saying that only recently have people been able to be so uncharitable to each other.

Evenbob, I was really hoping that you would realize the folly of your recent arguments on your own and I wasn't really planning on addressing them, but there are many outstanding questions you still have to answer.

You as a reasonable man desire proof, for example for the existence of God. Granted you deny modern cosmology, logic, witnesses, miracles, testimony, and philosophy amount to any proof for God at all, but that is besides the point. Now you ask me to accept two preposterous claims: 1) the universe is eternal and uncreated. 2) that all matter containing a mysterious spark of life is equal, no matter what form it takes.

Where is the proof for either one of those ideas? They seem exactly opposite what common sense and experience shows me.

Quote: Face

You're right. Sorry.

I guess it boils down to "why are we special? ", or perhaps, why are we more special?

That bear needs food, too. It needs water, shelter. It has its own family, its own desires, its own goals. It can fell a tree without tools. It can manage its own metabolism to survive both times of plenty and times of want. It can live 30 years in almost any climate and do so with only the body it was born in. That's pretty special. I can't do that.

An octopus can change color to match its surroundings. It can change shape. It can make its body as smooth as granite or as rough as coral. It can solve puzzles, open jars, figure out how to hunt. The most amazing thing of all is they cannot be taught this. There is no communication, there is no parental figure. Each one figures out all of this stuff individually. That is beyond amazing. I can't do that.

Why am I more special than that? Bias, and no more.

Certainly there is bias. You made me wonder if I was an octopus would I think that I am so much better and important than humans. I realize of course no octopus is thinking this, because they are not as awesome as a human being, but nevertheless ;) Maybe as an octopus my priorities of survival would make me think I am better than humans. I might think, "Man those guys stink. They can't change colors, they only have four arms, two of which are pretty useless, and they can't squirt ink out of their butts." This is all from the perspective and priority of survival. It is quite amazing and beautiful that our priorities are not just survival. It's almost as if we innately know there is more to us than just this world. Therefore, our gifts are that we feel compassion, we are willing to serve others, and help the weak and the poor. These aren't valued in the animal kingdom. So they can go right on thinking we are weak because we need clothes, parents, and I can't chop down a tree with my hands. While that stuff is cool I wouldn't trade it for a minute if it meant I would lose the capacity to love another person or even another animal unconditionally and selflessly.

Quote: FrGamble

But is it a tragedy? Ask yourself why do we feel called to invent or follow ethical rules?

Not a tragedy for the lion. Ethics are the grease
that keeps societies wheels running smoothly.
Even lions have ethics, they don't kill more than
they need that day. It would be wasteful.

Quote: FrGamble

Again scary stuff.

You do realize you've replaced 'sad' with words
like 'scary' and 'frightening'. Why do you feel
the need to judge almost everything I write.
You get your point across with facts, not moral
judgements. Salesmen use that for selling used
cars. 'Sir, you would be a moron not to take this
deal.'

Quote: FrGamble

Charity has been the norm of human society since the get go..

In the modern age, yes. (and Jesus was born in
the modern age because they had writing and
books) But even now, some societies
let baby girls die because they aren't male. And
other societies used to let their old people die when they
can no longer be productive. Unless a society is
well off, charity is an expensive luxury. When you
can barely scrabble for enough food to feed your
family, you don't give a rats behind about the kids
down the street. There was no money to feed the
poor, no orphanages, no homes for old people.

Quote: Evenbob

That's what
happens when you teach people they're
better than the food they kill to eat.

Or what happens when you teach people that the Earth is theirs to use and loot at will.

Quote: FrGamble

While that stuff is cool I wouldn't trade it for a minute if it meant I would lose the capacity to love another person or even another animal unconditionally and selflessly.

I wouldn't, either. But it does make me wonder.

I've no delusions that an octopus is having these higher thoughts. I imagine what thoughts it may have are very basic indeed. Hunt. Hide. Eat. Sleep.

But I do wonder about higher mammals. Elephants, apes, porpoises, all have been shown to have understanding. They have communication, they have what appears to be feelings. They express love (or at least care), they express hurt, they express worry. Anger, fear, revenge, compassion, these all have been shown to exist. Why? Why them?

Is it a mammal thing? Doubtful. There are plenty of mammals that exhibit only common behaviors. Hunt. Hide. Eat. But those who do show emotion are all widely regarded as the more intelligent species. In addition to this appearance of emotion, they also have communication. They have cooperation. They have family units. They have "nurses". They have "soldiers". They have "hunters". In short, they have a society.

There are things they don't have, too. Never in the history of ever has an orangutan polluted a lake beyond use. Never in the history of ever has a bottle-nose poisoned the body he lives in. Never in the history of ever has an elephant caused the extinction of myriad species from razing a forest. They just live and let live. Sure, there is "evil". Chimps are disgustingly brutal, literally tearing apart interlopers in their territory. Their preference is to rip the genitals clean off, by hand. Porpoises beat others out of their society. Elephants kill the young of their competition. But all of this is micro-scale. It is not even measurable when compared to the list of human atrocities.

So why would I think we're "better"? The only reason I can come up with is "because I can think".

Because you can think and because you can act on those thoughts consciously. The examples you gave of the animals having never polluted or destroyed the environment could be because they never really had a chance to. If these animals show so much aggression towards interlopers and other competition, what would happen if they ran a fortune 500 company and needed to pollute that lake or raze the forest to maximize profits? I don't know it's kind of fun to think about.

But back to what I am trying to say - we don't have to do those things you rightly lambast us for. We, unlike the animals, have a choice. One we consistently seem to make poorly in regards to the environment. This is why God told us all the way in the beginning of the Bible to subdue the earth. This does not mean to loot, or destroy, or rip and burn, or look at yourself as the only thing that matters in nature - No. It means care for the Earth and make it a good place for all of us to live connected together. Our higher thoughts and thinking do separate us from and elevate us above the rest of nature, but so do the fruits of those thoughts and the ability to make the choices we make - for bad or for good.

Quote: Evenbob

Unless a society is
well off, charity is an expensive luxury. When you
can barely scrabble for enough food to feed your
family, you don't give a rats behind about the kids
down the street. There was no money to feed the
poor, no orphanages, no homes for old people.

Actually, you've got this backwards. In a well off society, such as ours, charity actually diminishes. People get money and they want more of it, not to give it away. They start to say things like, "If only the rabble would work harder they could get to where I am." "Why should I reward people for doing nothing and give them something." "It's about survival of the fittest, just like in nature the poor and sick should be weeded out." Blah, blah, blah. At times like the great depression bread and soup kitchens sprang out of every Church and in every community. That is when we had charitable orphanages and homes to care for old people who had no money - unlike the nursing homes of today. It is in tough times when you care tremendously about the kids down the street and you realize if we don't all pull together we will all fall apart. It is the wealthy and rich who don't give a rat's behind about the poor outside their neighborhoods.

Quote: FrGamble

Actually, you've got this backwards. .

I really don't want to discuss charity, it's off
the topic. Charity has been around long
before Christianity. The Romans did it, they
did it in Plato's time, and in ancient Judea
and India. Probably even in China. Has
nothing to do with sin or god.

Quote: FrGamble

Because you can think and because you can act on those thoughts consciously.

Face's point is, so can lots of mammals.
They aren't machines that act on instinct only.
Dogs show signs of feeling at least 30
different emotions, that's why they're
mans best friend. Because animals are
different than us, that doesn't make them
'less than' us. No 'god' put us here and 'gave'
us the earth as a playground to do with as
we want. We are the earth and the earth
is us. We are the universe and it is us. We
are part of, not separate from. For eternity,
which is the eternal now, which is forever.

Quote: Evenbob

I really don't want to discuss charity, it's off
the topic. Charity has been around long
before Christianity. The Romans did it, they
did it in Plato's time, and in ancient Judea
and India. Probably even in China. Has
nothing to do with sin or god.

Charity is the opposite of sin and selfishness. Remember what started all of this discussion is an understanding that we are good, made in the image and likeness of God, yet we have been weakened by pride and selfishness. The discussion about how charity has always been around, which I am glad you realize now, is right in line with our discussion about sin and God.