Tolerance

Been thinking of this a lot lately. I woke up to notice AZD changed his sig on WoV defining tolerance, so figured it was as good a sign as any to talk about it.

What is tolerance? I think my generation is big on trumpeting the word. Typically, it deals with ideas that cause strife. The gay movement, religious differences, sometimes race and cultural issues. For my peers, I think it's safe to say it's one of those buzzwords you want to be associated with. I mean, you have to be tolerant. Show intolerance and you are shunned and mocked. You are labeled as "hateful", or the favorite of everyone, a "bigot".

I have a clique of friends that I pigeon hole as "tolerance crusaders". These are the types that live normal, white, privileged, straight, 1st world lives, but wave the flag of the underrepresented classes of folks. Almost all of these types circle the wagons around the gay movement. I dunno why they chose gay to represent, but they do so pretty much daily.

The more I've watched and the more I've followed their path, the more it strikes me as strange. Like, very strange.

I notice they're big on letting everyone know who their gay friends are and that they hang out with them often. They go to lengths to show everyone via Facebook, Instagram, whatever, of all the swanky digs they visit and trendy eateries they patronize. I can't really pinpoint my issue with it, only that it seems... contrived. I mean, EVERYONE is always posting their daily happenings. Going to the race, at the Bills game, dinner with the fam, pretty much all the mundane minutia that everyone does throughout the week. But with these types... it's just off. It doesn't feel like a post, it feels like a statement. It just feels off.

But the worst thing about this... these warriors of tolerance that I see, they are the most militantly INtolerant people I might have ever known. Do you know these types? It's the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I mean, they're bright folks. They're educated and well rounded, they're traveled and aware. But most of their posts center on "promoting tolerance" and showing that (discriminated class) is just like everyone else, until they are faced with an opposing view. And I've seen these opposing views, most are the most innocent things ever. Simple statements countering a belief, of just an advisement that one thinks differently. This opposition is met with the most furious vitriol the likes of which have not and could not be found on DT or WoV. Just the most bat-shit crazy stream of insults and hate, coming from the tolerance warriors.

What the hell is tolerance, then?!

I am a bigot. I do not like the urban culture, not one bit. I don't like their baggy clothes, I don't like their skinny jeans, I don't like their trendy digs, I don't like their loud and obnoxious way of speaking, I don't like their slang or their demeanor. Why is that a "bad" thing? I also don't like baseball. Am I allowed to say that?

I no longer support gay marriage. I don't support gay marriage because by supporting it, I support the idea that the gov has business in the marriage game. That's it. I don't withdraw my support out of hate or discrimination, rather I must withdraw my support to maintain my own beliefs, beliefs that the gov needs to be stripped of power. The fact that it's "gay" is a meaningless detail, but dare I speak my view out loud? Only if I want a fight. A fight... with the tolerance warriors. A fight with those who demand... acceptance of opposing views?

I dunno, just here to rant, I guess. It drives me nuts.

I'm pretty convinced most people are incapable of forming their own opinions, mostly they just absorb the feeling of the day.

Tolerance is people putting up with me.
You mean there's another kind?

Quote: Face

I am a bigot. I do not like the urban culture, not one bit. I don't like their baggy clothes, I don't like their skinny jeans, I don't like their trendy digs, I don't like their loud and obnoxious way of speaking, I don't like their slang or their demeanor. Why is that a "bad" thing?

Unless you go out of your way to exclude such people from aspects of daily life (like shopping, using a public toilet, getting medical care and so on), favor limiting their rights or stripping their rights entirely, take every opportunity to insult, offend and/or belittle them, favor laws to make their lives harder, favor legal discrimination against them and/or go out looking for such people in order to beat them up and/or kill them, I'd say you're not a bigot.

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I also don't like baseball.

No one likes baseball ;)

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Am I allowed to say that?

Yes. But let's not get into the hockey thing, ok? ;)

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I no longer support gay marriage. I don't support gay marriage because by supporting it, I support the idea that the gov has business in the marriage game. That's it. I don't withdraw my support out of hate or discrimination, rather I must withdraw my support to maintain my own beliefs, beliefs that the gov needs to be stripped of power.

One proper function of government is to act as a neutral third-party mediator in contractual disputes. Another is to look out for the interests of people unable to take care of themselves, such as minors for example.

Given these facts, codifying marriage in law is sensible as long as no one's voluntary commitment is abridged in any way. say by not forbidding people of one "race" to marry someone of another, or strictly limiting the gender of the participants involved, or favoring one gender over another for custody decisions in the event of divorce, etc.

Quote: Nareed

Unless you go out of your way to exclude such people from aspects of daily life (like shopping, using a public toilet, getting medical care and so on), favor limiting their rights or stripping their rights entirely, take every opportunity to insult, offend and/or belittle them, favor laws to make their lives harder, favor legal discrimination against them and/or go out looking for such people in order to beat them up and/or kill them, I'd say you're not a bigot.

You might not, and it is appreciated. But Webster's defines it as "a state of mind where a person strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc.". If I'm being honest, I think that exactly describes my view of urbanites, or "citiots", as I've been known to call them. I don't know them, don't experience their lives, etc. I just don't like it. It offends my country sensibilities. It's stupid, and probably unfair, but it just is.

Of course, I don't go on rallies or intentionally hurt folks or scream from the rooftops my displeasure or actively plot to interfere with them in any way. I just avoid the city. Maybe that saves me from general bigotry, I dunno =)

Quote: Nareed

One proper function of government is to act as a neutral third-party mediator in contractual disputes. Another is to look out for the interests of people unable to take care of themselves, such as minors for example.

Given these facts, codifying marriage in law is sensible as long as no one's voluntary commitment is abridged in any way. say by not forbidding people of one "race" to marry someone of another, or strictly limiting the gender of the participants involved, or favoring one gender over another for custody decisions in the event of divorce, etc.

Seems reasonable. But when it comes to the gov, I find myself slowly wafting towards extremism as the days roll by.

I guess it's sort of like my posts on racism at WoV, which you may or may not have read. I could protest for recognition, I could demand "equal rights", I could do a lot of things. But all of these acts serve to control or direct the power of gov. I don't want to do that. In fact, my base beliefs state I must not control said power, but attempt to remove it entirely. While your view that it should be codified makes sense, I can't agree with the premise because I can't agree that the gov should have the power to decree who is fit and who is not. Instead of fighting of which powers they should have, I'd rather remove it entirely. Then, not only do I get what I demand, less gov influence, but I get an end-around to what I think is right, the option for gays to marry. After all, the gov can't tell you "no" anymore, right?

I dunno. That's what I'm trying for now.

Quote: Face

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I have a clique of friends

Whoa, stop right there. You use clique and friends in the same sentence. Those seem like two opposing thought to me. A "clique" has some contrived belief that they all rally around and anyone not in the group, well, just doesn't measure up. So right away I guess we have a different op of what a friend is?

Maybe I should just stop there?

How many friends do you claim to have anyway? More than a handful? Friends is about as overused a word as "love" is. Are friends more than convenient acquaintance's, or someone you can trust with your life on a cold call in the wee hours? I believe the statement or the definition will change.

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What the hell is tolerance, then?!

Quote: petroglyph

Whoa, stop right there. You use clique and friends in the same sentence. Those seem like two opposing thought to me. A "clique" has some contrived belief that they all rally around and anyone not in the group, well, just doesn't measure up. So right away I guess we have a different op of what a friend is?

Maybe I should just stop there?

Sorry.

"I have a group of people I grew up with and am friendly toward" would probably be more apt.

Quote: petro

How many friends do you claim to have anyway? More than a handful? Friends is about as overused a word as "love" is. Are friends more than convenient acquaintance's, or someone you can trust with your life on a cold call in the wee hours? I believe the statement or the definition will change.

I generally define a friend as someone whom I could sit with in silence for more than 30 consecutive minutes and still enjoy the experience. By this definition I have 3.

Quote: petro

I don't not support "gay" marriage. I question marriage itself, I think it is outdated. It was only invented as a way to assert power over someone else. jmho

I agree completely. However, it is not for me to deem what others should do. If everyone deserves the right to pursue happiness, and agree they do, then so too do they have the right to pursue misery ;)

Quote: petroglyph

It was only invented as a way to assert power over someone else. jmho

Marriage was invented to protect the offspring.
Men had a natural tendency to desert the family
when the kids were small and find other women
to impregnate. Marriage made him deserting
the woman illegal. It was obviously invented by
women, and is being reinvented every year since
by them. Men really are pigs if left to their own
devices.

Quote: Face

Been thinking of this a lot lately. I woke up to notice AZD changed his sig on WoV defining tolerance, so figured it was as good a sign as any to talk about it.

Good power of observation, I think I made all of one post with the new sig when you posted this. I heard that statement 15 years or more ago and always remembered it. Finally made it my sig, new year time for a new sig. Last one was overdue to change as it was just a strike sig.

The way I see it, there are three levels of tolerance. The first level is that if I see a person doing behavior not illegal but that I don't like I can break their jaw or ignore it, that is level one. Breaking a jaw is illegal so I do not break jaws. Second level is that you can ignore bad behavior or not approve of it either quietly or in the open. Ignoring it is in a way "tolerance." But today to be "tolerant" you need to defend anyone, anywhere. If you do not, you are not "tolerant" in today's society.

Years ago to be "manly" you called out bad behavior. From as little as guys wearing their pants like they are in prison to yes I will say it, cruising bath houses for action, years ago there was no problem standing up and saying, "this is bad behavior." But over the years, something changed.

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What is tolerance? I think my generation is big on trumpeting the word. Typically, it deals with ideas that cause strife. The gay movement, religious differences, sometimes race and cultural issues. For my peers, I think it's safe to say it's one of those buzzwords you want to be associated with. I mean, you have to be tolerant. Show intolerance and you are shunned and mocked. You are labeled as "hateful", or the favorite of everyone, a "bigot".

I have a clique of friends that I pigeon hole as "tolerance crusaders". These are the types that live normal, white, privileged, straight, 1st world lives, but wave the flag of the underrepresented classes of folks. Almost all of these types circle the wagons around the gay movement. I dunno why they chose gay to represent, but they do so pretty much daily.

Something about white, suburban kids seems to compel them to this behavior. I think it may be the same thing that compels them to take useless college degrees and be unmarketable in the job market. They have lots of everything growing up, time on their hands, and they never get any street smarts. Their lives are empty.

They see gay characters on TV, hanging with their friends, so they emulate that. Same as kids got library cards the week after Fonzie got one, same as they wanted to be lawyers after watching "L.A. Law," same as the coffeehouse became the place to hang just like "Central Perk," it is emulation. It fills the void people like yourself and myself did not have because we were busting our tails to get things we needed and wanted in life.


Perhaps you have heard the term "gay is the new black?" Years ago Carson on "Queer Eye" said, "last year all the kids wanted to act black, now they all want to act gay." (or something like that, not sure the exact words except for the black and gay part." But you are right, it is strange and what is it?

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But the worst thing about this... these warriors of tolerance that I see, they are the most militantly INtolerant people I might have ever known. Do you know these types? It's the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I mean, they're bright folks. They're educated and well rounded, they're traveled and aware. But most of their posts center on "promoting tolerance" and showing that (discriminated class) is just like everyone else, until they are faced with an opposing view. And I've seen these opposing views, most are the most innocent things ever. Simple statements countering a belief, of just an advisement that one thinks differently. This opposition is met with the most furious vitriol the likes of which have not and could not be found on DT or WoV. Just the most bat-shit crazy stream of insults and hate, coming from the tolerance warriors.

The point is that it is not "tolerance." It is about their own agenda disguised as "tolerance." Same as a push for taxes and control is disguised as "global warming."

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I dunno, just here to rant, I guess. It drives me nuts.

It was a great rant and post!

Quote: Face

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Sorry.

No apology necessary

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I generally define a friend as someone whom I could sit with in silence for more than 30 consecutive minutes and still enjoy the experience. By this definition I have 3.

You are a wealthy man indeed. Can those 3 friends do the same, sit in silence for thirty minutes and still enjoy the experience? Which one breaks the silence?

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I agree completely. However, it is not for me to deem what others should do. If everyone deserves the right to pursue happiness, and agree they do, then so too do they have the right to pursue misery ;)