Stupid poll

Quote: kenarman

I voted for the start of the 14th because it seems logical to me. If it means anything Wiki agrees with me.

"Under the 24-hour clock system, the day begins at midnight, 00:00, and the last minute of the day begins at 23:59 and ends at 24:00, which is identical to 00:00 of the following day. 12:00 can only be mid-day."

You're real close to being tossed into the hole, ol buddy. Maybe you're just confused. I'll put down the stick for a moment to see if it can be cleared up.

"Under the 24-hour clock system, the day begins at midnight, 00:00". You use this to support your claim. And I'm sure you'd agree that 0000 = 2400 just as 1 = 12/12. So "day begins at 0000" = "day begins at 2400". This is Wiki info, which you say is agreeable.

But, Nareed's question stated "services resume at 2400 on the 13th". So 2400 = 0000 = the beginning of the day, a day which has been listed as being the 13th.

What is 0000/2400? The beginning of the day
What day was specified? The 13th
"Services resume at 2400 on the 13th" can only mean the early morning of the 13th, which is both the logical conclusion, as well as what Wiki seems to support, despite your claim to the contrary.

Explain yourself! Oh, and imagine a bunch of smileys and winks peppered throughout. Even when I'm "joking", some subjects I just can't tone down ;)

Look at the Wiki quote again Face. 24:00 is the same as 00:00 OF THE FOLLOWING DAY. Therefore 24:00 on the 13th is the same as 00:00 OF THE FOLLOWING DAY which is the 14th.

If this doesn't convince you we can always settle it on the ice. Of course non contact, I break to easy at my age ;-)

Quote: kenarman

Look at the Wiki quote again Face. 24:00 is the same as 00:00 OF THE FOLLOWING DAY. Therefore 24:00 on the 13th is the same as 00:00 OF THE FOLLOWING DAY which is the 14th.

If this doesn't convince you we can always settle it on the ice. Of course non contact, I break to easy at my age ;-)

"Under the 24 hour clock system..." yes, yes, "...the day begins at midnight, 0000 (the day = Nareed's 13th)" mmhmm, "and the last minute of the day begins at 2359..." yes, quite, "...and ends at 2400 (which is the same as 0000... which is the beginning... but... it's also... the end...???

/0





I'm gonna need some time. Excuse me...

Quote: Face

"Under the 24 hour clock system..." yes, yes, "...the day begins at midnight, 0000 (the day = Nareed's 13th)" mmhmm, "and the last minute of the day begins at 2359..." yes, quite, "...and ends at 2400 (which is the same as 0000... which is the beginning... but... it's also... the end...???

/0





I'm gonna need some time. Excuse me...

Take your time Face it appears I have lots. I just did one of those life expectancy quizes it says I will live until frigging 97. I didn't do my retirement planning based on that age. I guess I am on the freedom 80 plan now. Becarefull what you wish for grasshopper.

Quote: kenarman

Take your time Face

No need, I'm already back.

Quote: Wiki

Under the 24-hour clock system, the day begins at midnight, 00:00, and the last minute of the day begins at 23:59 and ends at 24:00, which is identical to 00:00 of the following day.

Ok, this part is easier than originally thought...

Quote: Sign

Service will resume at 24:00 on the 13th

The sign is written improperly. (How's that for a refusal to admit I'm wrong? ;)) But stick with me for a sec.

The use of "2400" does imply an end. You start at 0000 and end at 2400, right? It is the end.

BUT, we see that is is NOT the end. It is both a beginning and an end, equally. We must agree on this.

So whichever day we think the time refers to, the use of either 0000 or 2400 means nothing because they mean the same. It cannot help either of our cases (although I will give you that, in common sense, 2400 does IMPLY an end).

The real clincher is further down the sentence. ON. ON the 13th. Now, we cannot argue that 0000 or 2400 makes a difference factually. They are equal. We CAN argue that 2400 implies an end, which I'll grant you as a point to your position. But in ALL cases, a time of day only makes sense if it applies to that day. It HAS to apply to that day.

If 2400 on the 13th were to mean the 14th, then technically the 13th doesn't exist. There is no more 13th at 2400. It is gone, it is over. If it is over, services cannot resume ON it.

Because it is ON the 13th, it has to be the 2400 that means beginning. It's the only remaining option.

What say you?

(PS - You've no idea the urge I have to drive to NC and punch my best friend in his head. This stuff brings up so many memories of rage XD)

(PPS - First Jesus, now numbers. You guys have GOT to stop putting me in the position to discuss subjects I've no business even mentioning =p)

Quote: Face

No need, I'm already back.



Ok, this part is easier than originally thought...



The sign is written improperly. (How's that for a refusal to admit I'm wrong? ;)) But stick with me for a sec.

The use of "2400" does imply an end. You start at 0000 and end at 2400, right? It is the end.

BUT, we see that is is NOT the end. It is both a beginning and an end, equally. We must agree on this.

So whichever day we think the time refers to, the use of either 0000 or 2400 means nothing because they mean the same. It cannot help either of our cases (although I will give you that, in common sense, 2400 does IMPLY an end).

The real clincher is further down the sentence. ON. ON the 13th. Now, we cannot argue that 0000 or 2400 makes a difference factually. They are equal. We CAN argue that 2400 implies an end, which I'll grant you as a point to your position. But in ALL cases, a time of day only makes sense if it applies to that day. It HAS to apply to that day.

If 2400 on the 13th were to mean the 14th, then technically the 13th doesn't exist. There is no more 13th at 2400. It is gone, it is over. If it is over, services cannot resume ON it.

Because it is ON the 13th, it has to be the 2400 that means beginning. It's the only remaining option.

What say you?

(PS - You've no idea the urge I have to drive to NC and punch my best friend in his head. This stuff brings up so many memories of rage XD)

(PPS - First Jesus, now numbers. You guys have GOT to stop putting me in the position to discuss subjects I've no business even mentioning =p)

I hope your head doesn't explode again Face, that must be painfull, but you haven't convinced me. I see the situation as the following: as the 13th ends it slowly gets close to midnight at midnight and then instaneously becomes 00:00 on the 14th.

Do we agree that 24:00 is midnight? If not what time is midnight? Clearly if I say midnight on the 13th I am sure most people will agree that I mean the end of the 13th.

Quote: kenarman

Do we agree that 24:00 is midnight? If not what time is midnight? Clearly if I say midnight on the 13th I am sure most people will agree that I mean the end of the 13th.

I do agree that 2400 is midnight. I'd add that 0000 is also midnight.

Your last statement... makes me wonder why pointless things make me rage so hard XD

And lo! We open our Wiki to the Book of Midnight 3:1, and it sayeth...

Quote: Wiki

"In the United States and Canada, digital clocks and computers commonly display 12 a.m. right at midnight. While that phrase may be used practically, it helps to understand that any particular time is actually an instant. The "a.m." shown on clock displays refers to the 12-hour period following the instant of midnight, not to the instant itself, because at that time, you are looking at clocks midnight has already passed and the period before noon (a.m.) of a new day has begun. In other words, 11:59 p.m. shows until midnight; at the instant of midnight, it changes to 12:00. Simultaneously, the p.m. changes to a.m., though, strictly speaking, a.m. does not apply to the instant of midnight which separates p.m. and a.m. In 24-hour time notation, "0:00" and "0:00:00" refer to midnight at the start of a given date. Some styles, such as ISO 8601, allow 24:00 to refer to the end of a day. Noon is 12:00:00."

OK. "At the instant of midnight, it changes to (2400). Simultaneously, the pm changes to am, though, strictly speaking, am does not apply to the instant of midnight which separates pm and am."

This... none of this is helping at all LOL.

Maybe I'll try this. I know either Wiz or Cess will confirm or deny, if they're watching.

When counting for reals, you have to start with zero. I think Wiz made a Pet Peeve post abut this before. 1-10 isn't right, it's supposed to be 0-9 or something. I think programmers think this way too. Hopefully they will confirm or deny.

Whether they do or not, I think you'd have to admit that counting must obviously start at zero. Whether your using hours, half hours, minutes, seconds, or jiffies, you have to start at the beginning, which is zero.

A day is almost over. We'll call this day Steve to disambiguate. It's 2359 on Steve. One more minute until Dave. Once you hit 2400, at that instant, there is no more counting to be done of Steve. Steve is full up at 2400, the next count will be of Dave starting at 0000.

Because they WROTE THEIR SIGN WRONG (lol), the 2400 implies the count is complete, that count is full, and that count is the 13th. That means the 14th is next. But I maintain that, technically, 2400 is 0000, and the use of "ON the 13th" is not possible if 2400 meant the end. 2400 ON the 13th cannot exist. It is the end point. It is zero. 2359:59.9999999999... is the last possible moment of a day. 2400 does not belong to that day, 0000 does not belong to that day, it marks the end. The end is not "part of", it expressly means that it is separate from.

It's that "ON". I think that makes all the difference. If it had said "2400 OF the 13th", I'd be done. I'd kill my damn self out of furious frustration lol. But the "ON", it says it all. 2400 and 0000 both mean the same thing - 0. Zero. No value, nothing has elapsed, it is the instant one changes to another. The only thing left in that sentence that has a value is "13th". Why would they use 13th if it actually opened on the 14th?

Nareed! It's the 15th! WHAT DAY DID THEY OPEN?!?!?!!!11eleven!!!

I hope you are having fun Face because I don't want to be responsible for you drowning yourself in the Crick ;-)

If they had said midnight on the 13th when would you say that was?

I think your logic might be in an unsolvable loop. If 24:00 on the 13th is the same as 00:00 on the 13th then we have the situation where 00:00 on the 13th is the same as 24:00 on the 12th which is the same as 00:00 on the 12th which is the same as 24:00 on the 11th ..........................

Now we are really screwed without getting into physics and the idea that time doesn't really exist anyway.

Quote: kenarman

I hope you are having fun Face because I don't want to be responsible for you drowning yourself in the Crick ;-)

Given that I am occasionally masochist, sure. This is "fun" =p

Quote: kenarman

If they had said midnight on the 13th when would you say that was?

I would say it is the early morning of the beginning of the 13th, for the exact reason I (tried to) communicate earlier. Whether 0000, 2400, or midnight, they all mean zero. They have no value. Only "13" has value. Why would you use the only thing that has value (13) to mean any other day but the 13th?

That is my argument.

Quote: kenarman

I think your logic might be in an unsolvable loop. If 24:00 on the 13th is the same as 00:00 on the 13th then we have the situation where 00:00 on the 13th is the same as 24:00 on the 12th which is the same as 00:00 on the 12th which is the same as 24:00 on the 11th ..........................

Now we are really screwed without getting into physics and the idea that time doesn't really exist anyway.

You have no idea lol. I hold the belief that everything is knowable, everything is solvable. Some things, like is there God / a god, I can accept as unknowable right now, but even that I will personally know eventually. Things like this, simple concepts using simple numbers and simple time that I use everyday, HAVE TO BE KNOWABLE.

At the very least, I need a term or a concept that explains why something is not possible. I need a reason. I need to UNDERSTAND. Sh..tuff like this puts me in full loop mode, and every time I start the loop, it gets faster and faster until my brain is just abuzz and it drives me mad. Like, literally mad. It makes me insane. And then I get to the point where the only thing I can accept is for Nareed to report back that they never opened at all because 2400 doesn't exist as it is zero, and any other option only furthers my rage.

Keep your ears open. The report of my head exploding should reach Vancouver in about 2hrs ><

If Midnight is start of the day I have to agree with your interpretation. I have always believed that Midnight was the end of the day because it was the end of our clock for the day ie we travelled from 00.00 to 00.01 .............................. to 11:59 to 24:00 and then started again on the new day. I am 350 miles NW of Vancouver so I would need to look at map to see if that puts me any further from you than Vancouver. Hopefully the sound of your head exploding doesn't get here at midnight or I would have missed it already. Did one more search see below. Looks like we are both right as midnight can be either the start or end of a day but the 24:00 means midnight at the end of the day. Since these are the guys that send out the national time signal I will go with them.

The quote below is from the National Institute of Standards and Technology's web site. Founded in 1901 and now part of the U.S. Department of Commerce, NIST is one of the nation's oldest physical science laboratories.

"Is midnight the end of a day or the beginning of a day?
When someone refers to "midnight tonight" or "midnight last night" the reference of time is obvious. However, if a date/time is referred to as "at midnight on Friday, October 20th" the intention could be either midnight the beginning of the day or midnight at the end of the day.

To avoid ambiguity, specification of an event as occurring on a particular day at 11:59 p.m. or 12:01 a.m. is a good idea, especially legal documents such as contracts and insurance policies. Another option would be to use 24-hour clock, using the designation of 0000 to refer to midnight at the beginning of a given day (or date) and 2400 to designate the end of a given day (or date)."