Who are happier -- Christians or Atheists?
February 5th, 2015 at 4:45:17 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
There is no right thing to do without something that is universal and above us. Think of the famous line from The Brothers Karamazov, "If God does not exist, everything is permissible." Without God, or something like God to ground the definition of what is right, your statement is nonsensical. How can one do the right thing because it is the right thing when what I really mean is that it is the subjective right thing for me at this moment? The essence of godlessness is to make impossible any judgment of right or wrong in a true, real, or meaningful sense. This is why atheism makes impossible a moral code rather than establishing one. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
February 5th, 2015 at 5:09:13 AM permalink | |
Mosca Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 22 Posts: 730 |
You have morally equated your God and Trinity with reason. Either you have conceded or you do not understand reason. |
February 5th, 2015 at 6:26:22 AM permalink | |
Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 | I have to side with Mosca on this (surprise!)
That's true, except for the "above us" part. Morality is not, and should not be, imposed as a diktat from authority without rhyme or reason. And yet a fictional character, or a mythical character if you prefer, is not a universal anything.
More opinions from fictional characters? (I think that was low of me).
Without a standard of value you cannot ground the definition of what's right. God is a terrible standard of value. An ultimate authority who does not explain, but simply imposes his will by force or threat of force (flood, pillars of salt, wanton destruction of stone towers, the earth swallowing the infidel, etc.) And that would be if God were real, which he's not. It's like basing a moral code on Gilgamesh, Seth, Isis, Zeus(*), or even Spiderman.
Wow, I'm laughing so hard I'm expecting someone from the next office to call over and ask what the f**** is going on! (*) It just occurred to me Jehovah, being a deity of ancient times, is as quarrelsome as his other mythic contemporaries. But being also an only god, he has to make his quarrels with humanity rather than with other deities better able to fend for themselves. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
February 5th, 2015 at 7:39:06 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I guess I have. Reason is right thinking or logic. It is using our given intellect to discover the truth. God is the Truth and the way to reach Him is through using our reason/logic. Jesus is the incarnate Word of God. In Greek He is the Logos, from which we get the word Logic. Jesus is the way we come to truth, He is reason incarnate. "I am the way, the truth, and the life" Where my argument is sloppy is in my list of higher powers. I was just trying to make a more general point that one needs a universal truth in which to ground morality I was not equating Zeus to the Trinity. I'm glad you have latched onto my inclusion of reason because it is important to make clear that Christianity is not anti-reason, but rather the worship of reason who leads us to truth. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
February 5th, 2015 at 7:49:19 AM permalink | |
Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
Wow(*)! That's so wrong I don't know where to begin. Reason is logically thought. Not "right" thought. When I hear things like that, I sense Mr. Blair stirring in his grave.
Logical thinking has a weakness: it requires true premises. If, say, I tried to reason thus: Dead people resurrect often Jesus was a dead man Therefore Jesus resurrected. I'd be guilty of starting off with one wrong premise. Dead people don't resurrect. Ever. It's worse when you start off with a conclusion, because then you don't reason, you rationalize. that is, you build up arguments to make your conclusion seem true. (*) When a woman says "wow," the argument is over. Retreat and pick another battle later (which you will also lose) Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
February 5th, 2015 at 8:08:55 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I'm glad you recognize the need for universal truths.
That's true. Reason is not a dictator.
I thought you would appreciate the lessons learned from good literature.
The law of gravity is no dictator imposing its will upon those who reject it and jump from a bridge. Nor does it enforce its law with threat or fear. Murder, rape, robbery, disrespect, etc. lead to very real and tragic consequences. You reap what you so. This moral law is the ultimate authority and is very real and true, just like God. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
February 5th, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
Even if it was true, I'm not sure what he was trying to prove by doing it. It seems like a rather cheap trick, one that any logical person at the time would explain by saying he was never really dead, or someone died in his place. Nobody would jump right to the conclusion that he rose from the dead, that would be too far fetched to be even considered. Yet we're supposed to believe that everywhere he went people just bought his story and were 'amazed'. No, the amazing part would be that he was believed at all. Even today, when we could have verifiable proof that someone died, if they came back to life we would think it a fluke, not a divine event. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
February 5th, 2015 at 8:16:05 AM permalink | |
Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
The law of gravity is a mathematical abstraction of the force of gravity. The force of gravity is NOT a sentient entity, nor a volitional entity. Non-sentient, non-volitional entities are amoral. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
February 5th, 2015 at 8:22:01 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Wow! That is a good straw man argument. "Dead people resurrect often", I don't know who said that? It is as untrue and illogical as saying, "Dead people don't resurrect. Ever." You are the one starting with an untrue premise. I am also not starting off with a conclusion. I start with the empty tomb, the inability of anyone to produce evidence that Jesus was indeed still dead, the conviction of the Apostles and disciples, their eyewitness accounts, the spread of the faith in the midst of persecution, etc. All these things lead to the logical conclusion that Jesus indeed has Risen! Alleluia! You are the only one starting with a conclusion: Dead people don't resurrect. Ever. What lead you to that conclusion? What are your true premises in the case of Jesus that would lead you to not hold Him as an exception? I think I sense Mr. Blair stirring as well, maybe he will rise from the dead and help you to see the problem with your logical thinking. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
February 5th, 2015 at 8:28:32 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
But that's not a logical conclusion, why do you think it is. It's as logical as seeing a person I know in the store, then later seeing him mowing his lawn, and thinking he must have teleported from the store to his house because I don't know how he got there. That's not logical at all. Just like assuming Jesus rose from the dead isn't logical. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |