Was Jesus God?

Quote: FrGamble

We are perfectly fine taking care of ourselves. .

That would be great if true. But you
don't keep it to yourselves, Yahweh
followers are out there trying to get
converts, trying to tell people how
to run their lives. Trying to give them
the 'good news' which is not good at
all.

Quote: FrGamble

The fact is I don't know everything, none of us do and we all need help.

Well, that's not quite what you claimed in the thread regarding miracles. Or rather that the church knows everything about human physiology, genetics, environmental and other influences on the body (including bacteria, viruses, food, medication and drugs, to name a few), and how they all interact together in all possible ways.

Anyway, given your church gives women zero power officially within the hierarchy, does it consider the needs of women as women actually define them to be, or as the church imagines them, through scripture, to be?

The latter may pose as concern for others, but it's really imposing the church's will on others.

What really bothers me about religions
like Christianity, is the magic factor. For
me, the whole things sounds and reads
like it's some kind of magical trick. And
all you have to do to be 'saved', is to
believe in the magic. Just say some words
and you're saved. Magic words.

But nothing else in life works like that, why
should we believe this does. If I want
anything in life, an education, a good job,
a nice family, I have to actively work at
getting it. There's no magic words I can
say to get any of it.

Except eternal salvation. I can get that just
by saying some magical words. This comes
from a time when people believed words
had power, actual power. You could curse
people with words if you were a witch, and
the curse would come true. We've moved
way past that era, there are no magic words.
For anything.

First of all don't fool yourself into thinking words don't have power. They have the power to get you that job or have you lose it right away. They have the power to create marriages and relationships and the greatest pains in our lives. They make war and they make peace.

It makes sense that since eternal salvation as Christians understand it is based on fostering a relationship with the living Lord Jesus that words, so essential to relationships, would be so important. It also saves us from the idea that you can earn your salvation based on how good you are.

Secondly, you are forgetting that words without actions are empty words and then your argument has merit. I would agree that anyone who thinks they can be saved by just muttering some words is crazy. However, words that reflect the inner workings of the heart and lead to real sustained efforts to grow in love and holiness is a wonderful life changing thing.

Quote: FrGamble

First of all don't fool yourself into thinking words don't have power.

You know exactly what I meant. People thought
the words themselves had power, not somebodies
interpretation of them.

Quote:

you are forgetting that words without actions are empty words

Really. Then why would Teresa sneak around
her clinics in India and convert Hindu's on
their death beds into Christians if she believed
words didn't have power. This was the major
complaint the Indian doctors had about her.
She would convert dying people who had no
idea what she was doing. Just get them to say
a few words and the magic was done.

The principle there is "informed consent"

Read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa
"Baptisms of the Dying" section, follow the footnotes 3 and 4 to the books from which that section cited its information.

Quote: Dalex64

Read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa
"Baptisms of the Dying" section, .

It's well known that she did this, it infuriated
the Hindu staff.

"Mother Teresa encouraged members of her order to secretly baptise dying patients, without regard to the individual's religion. Susan Shields, a former member of the Missionaries of Charity, writes that "Sisters were to ask each person in danger of death if he wanted a 'ticket to heaven'. An affirmative reply was to mean consent to baptism. The sister was then to pretend that she was just cooling the patient’s head with a wet cloth, while in fact she was baptising him, saying quietly the necessary words. Secrecy was important so that it would not come to be known that Mother Teresa’s sisters were baptising Hindus and Muslims."

Saying the magic words. They think the words
alone have a magical power, even when the
person they're saying them to has no idea what
the words mean. This is superstitious Middle
Ages stuff. Words have no power of their own,
no matter who is speaking them. You can't put an
effective curse on someone with just your words,
anymore than you can 'save' them by mumbling
a few verses while they're dying. It's superstitious
mumbo jumbo of the worst kind.

The superstition goes both ways.

On the one hand, you have someone whispering the magic words, as if it actually does something or matters.

On the other hand, you have people objecting to the whispering of the magic words, as if it actually does something or matters.

If you are a Hindu, and don't believe in the christian religion, what does it matter if someone from that religion baptizes a hindu? You would have to believe that it matters, and can actually change what happens to the person after they die. If they don't believe in christianity, how can they believe that baptism does anything at all?

Quote: Dalex64

On the other hand, you have people objecting to the whispering of the magic words, as if it actually does something or matters.

That's not it. It's a matter of respect, not whether
the words mean anything. I certainly wouldn't
want some Christian charleton whispering magic
words into my atheist grandmas ear as she was
dying. I know the words are meaningless, but
it's disrespectful to take advantage of a person
in that position, and I would be quite insulted
that they even tried.

Think of it this way. Your grandpa is dying in the
hospital. You go into his room and catch an
orderly going thru his clothes in the closet for
something to steal. You know his pockets are
empty, so should you not care? Of course you
would be upset, it's the idea of what he's
attempting, not the fact that he will gain nothing
from it.

Quote: Evenbob

That's not it. It's a matter of respect,

I think it is a matter of respect, respecting a dying person's desire. I'm just wondering if for your whole life you have been put down as untouchable and worthless and you were left to die in the gutter with dogs to lick your sores and then someone comes, picks you up, bathes you gives you new clothes, feeds you and dresses your open wounds, and gives you a place to rest; what would you think of that person? What would you think of the group that continues to feed and care for you the best way they can? As you get to know the sisters and mother, what would you think of the religion that inspires them to serve the poorest of the poor? I imagine you would be inclined to pray with the sisters and if they asked you if you would like to be baptized I don't think many would turn it down.

On a side note, having worked with Mother Teresa's sisters, The Missionaries of Charity, I will say not everyone is grateful. Sometimes people's untreated mental illness and the way the world has treated them for their lives means that even the dear sisters are treated with anger and frustration as they are tending to someone's needs. No one is forced to ever get baptized or to pray with the sisters.

Quote:

Think of it this way. Your grandpa is dying in the
hospital. You go into his room and catch an
orderly going thru his clothes in the closet for
something to steal. You know his pockets are
empty, so should you not care? Of course you
would be upset, it's the idea of what he's
attempting, not the fact that he will gain nothing
from it.

A much better analogy would be that you catch an orderly putting monopoly money into the pockets of your grandpa. There is no intent to steal or do anything wrong, only an attempt, no matter how strange you may find it to do good. Also let's not forget we are talking about eternal life here. Just a few posts ago somewhere you were berating me and Christians for not begging you to believe and now you are criticizing someone for trying to save people?