Easter Is Coming in 8 Weeks

Quote: FrGamble

According to my understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics the universe (as one giant closed system) will eventually come to a state of equilibrium given sufficient time to do so.

We really know little about the universe,
or what it does or is made of. Black holes,
anti matter, wormholes, on and on. There
might be a thousand alternate universes.
How can you even wrap your mind around
a billion galaxies. Or billions. It's exciting
to be part of it, and the more we discover,
the more the superstitions of old become
antiquated and quaint.

Quote: Evenbob

It's exciting
to be part of it, and the more we discover,
the more the superstitions of old become
antiquated and quaint.

This betrays a type of 'god of the gaps' mentality which should have no place in religion. The Bible is not a scientific textbook nor is religion meant to ever answer why there seems to be anti-matter. Religion is here to answer the larger why questions like, "why is there something rather than nothing?" "Why is the universe so impossibly fine tuned to support life as we know it?" "Why are we as human beings so radically different than all other life?" "What does it mean to be a human being?" "How do we answer the questions that suffering, evil, and sin raise in our minds and hearts?" etc., etc. ,etc.

Don't get too lost in the amazing wonderment of the universe and forget to cast your gaze into your own soul. There too we find challenging and exciting things that you are intimately a part of. It's exciting and the more we start asking some of these profound questions about why we are here and who we are, the more we discover that science in all its power is unable to help us understand the depths and significance of ourselves.

Quote: Nareed

So to fix a violation to the 2nd Law, you need a creator who can violate the 2nd Law.

I think you meant to say a creator who can violate the 1st law. Anyway if because of the 2nd law we can obviously rule out an eternal universe, even one that is a multi-verse than that leaves both atheists and theists with no choice be look at the beginning of all energy, space, and time as an exception to the 1st rule we call would call creation. Of course an atheist and a theist would look at creation very differently but it all had to begin somewhere.

Quote: Nareed

It was all about ideas.

Let me ask you something: is the resurrection the only or even the main reason people are Christians? Or is there something else involved? Do the ideas in Christianity matter at all?

Christianity is about a person, Jesus Christ. Certainly it is about His teachings, His ideas, His life, death, and Resurrection. Ultimately it is about Him. The main reason people are Christians is because they love Jesus Christ and everything about Him.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you meant to say a creator who can violate the 1st law.

And the second, and third, and those yet to be found, and the laws of quantum mechanics, etc.

If an eternal universe violates the 2nd Law, then anything eternal violates it as well.

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Anyway if because of the 2nd law we can obviously rule out an eternal universe,

No, it doesn't.

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Christianity is about a person, Jesus Christ. Certainly it is about His teachings, His ideas, His life, death, and Resurrection. Ultimately it is about Him. The main reason people are Christians is because they love Jesus Christ and everything about Him.

This sounds too much like a cult of personality.

When you put a person first, their ideas are accepted implicitly. Whether they're good ideas or not is secondary. If they're good, they will often work and be beneficial. If they're not, they'll be rationalized into being "ultimately" good, even if they never work and are harmful. Things can turn totalitarian too easily, if they aren't already. It's too dangerous.

Even if God and Jesus were real, for that reason alone I would not follow them.

Quote: Nareed

And the second, and third, and those yet to be found, and the laws of quantum mechanics, etc.

If an eternal universe violates the 2nd Law, then anything eternal violates it as well.

Not necessarily. The laws of thermodynamics apply to systems, if someone or thing was outside the system it would not fall under these laws. If there is a creator or first cause, as there obviously is, this being or force would necessarily be spiritual (out of the system so to speak), eternal, and all-powerful.

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No, it doesn't.

Yes it does.

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This sounds too much like a cult of personality.

Things can turn totalitarian too easily, if they aren't already. It's too dangerous.

Even if God and Jesus were real, for that reason alone I would not follow them.

This is precisely why you need to be informed of the teaching of Jesus and His Church yet think for yourself. Christian morality has always taught the ultimate judge is your own personal conscience. We have a duty to inform our conscience and be humble enough to realize that the world does not revolve around me, nor are my desires, passions, and feelings the end all for the judgement of if something is right or wrong. Granted Christians may not always do this very well as you can see from all the totalitarian sects that spring up whose devotion and worship is directed more to a pastor than our Savior.

Quote: FrGamble

Christian morality has always taught the ultimate judge is your own personal conscience.

I thought the Ultimate Judge was the Lord God, who decides if I spend time in torment, or at his side in heaven?

I'm much happier with a internal conscience being my judge for morality.

Good, consider that a gift from the Lord God.

Quote: FrGamble

Not necessarily. The laws of thermodynamics apply to systems, if someone or thing was outside the system it would not fall under these laws.

Right. And we don't know whether the universe is a closed system or not.

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If there is a creator or first cause, as there obviously is, this being or force would necessarily be spiritual (out of the system so to speak), eternal, and all-powerful.

I would love to see the observation that led to that conclusion.

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Yes it does.

Read my remark about open systems.

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This is precisely why you need to be informed of the teaching of Jesus and His Church yet think for yourself.

For a cult of personality?

I'm unfamiliar with Christian prayer, but if it's anything like Jewish prayers, then I want no part of it either.

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Christian morality has always taught the ultimate judge is your own personal conscience.

So if my conscience dictates one thing and Jesus another, what do I do? I mean, I know what I'd do. What would you do?

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We have a duty to inform our conscience and be humble enough to realize that the world does not revolve around me, nor are my desires, passions, and feelings the end all for the judgement of if something is right or wrong.

It revolves around Jesus and God and the other part of the trinity, and their desires and passions are beyond question. "Works in mysterious ways." "God doesn't make mistakes." "it's part of god's plan." "God gives you what you need, not what you want."

I vaguely recall a phrase for what one needs when a ten-foot pole is not long enough. That's the least distance I need from religion in all forms.

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If there is a creator or first cause, as there obviously is, this being or force would necessarily be spiritual (out of the system so to speak), eternal, and all-powerful.

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I would love to see the observation that led to that conclusion.

Religious people make these gigantic leaps
in logic and science, just to bolster their
position. A creator is 'obvious'? To who,
exactly. They do the same thing with sin,
it's supposedly obvious that sin is real.
If you just say it with conviction that makes
it true, I guess.

This drives me absolutely nuts. They gloss over
the parts of their religion that are the basis
of it's existence, that god and sin exist. In person,
when I've questioned sins reality, I've had them
fix me with a look that had both pity and disgust
in it. Like I had a big lump of dog poop on my
shoe and I had just stunk up the whole conversation.

Quote: FrGamble

Religion is here to answer the larger why questions like, "why is there something rather than nothing?" "Why is the universe so impossibly fine tuned to support life as we know it?" "Why are we as human beings so radically different than all other life?" "What does it mean to be a human being?" "How do we answer the questions that suffering, evil, and sin raise in our minds and hearts?" etc., etc. ,etc.

As Barney Stinson likes to say "Challenge accepted."

1) I don't know. No one knows.

2) The universe isn't fine tuned for life. it is indifferent to it, just as it's indifferent to planet formation, or asteroid collisions. But the way the laws of nature works, conditions in the universe can result in life, just as they can result in stars being formed.

However, consider the many pitfalls faced by life. A supernova light years away can extinguish life on earth if it's jet of gamma rays is facing the right way (or the wrong way from our perspective). A solar flare or a coronal ejection could destroy much of life. Asteroid impacts have destroyed much of life. Hardly ideal conditions for life, wouldn't you say?

3) Human beings in one way are not radically different from other animals. We share an awful lot of DNA with chimps, for example. We can easily empathize with dogs and cats (yes, I said cats). Al mammals are built on basically the same plan, with modifications.

Our minds, however, are radically different. We can form concepts, consistently and habitually. Most animals can't do this. They learn by habit, not by conceptualization. Still, a dog can tell a person and animal apart; that is, she won't treat a person and animal the same way. Apes can defer rewards and think about the future. So the capacity to conceptualize is there, even in comparatively unintelligent animals like dogs, but not to the same degree as in humans. It's a bit like manual dexterity (a bit). Monkeys and apes have some dexterity, but nothing like what human hands can do.

I think the reason is our earliest direct ancestors found a large advantage in using their conceptual abilities, and evolution "refined" that aspect in time. it took many thousands of years to get to us.

From time to time I wonder what our descendant species will be like. Few SF authors have speculated on it, notably H.G. Welles did in "The Time Machine." Larry Niven did too in, I think, "A World Out of Time."

4) There is no inherent meaning in being human, anymore than there is in being blond or left-handed. But there is a great potential in every human being. The potential to create, to build, to discover, to question, to find, to investigate, to develop the mind, to develop the body, to fight, to kill, to steal, to make, to suffer, to inflict suffering, to relieve suffering, to strive, to seek and not to yield, among other things.

In brief, we're capable of great deeds or great misdeeds, and also of small ones. The potential is in everyone, What one does with it is one's choice, and the big moral question: What will I do with my life?