War in HD

It's a series originally shown on the History Channel that's now on Netflix. There are at least two; one for Vietnam, the other for WWII. I've seen them both previously but just started watching them again. I've already gotten through 'Nam and am up to Iwo Jima and the Siegfried Line in WWII.

They are both, in a word, incredible. Years of searching produced tons of film, all remastered in color and HD. Several interviews were taken of men who served, letters and diaries were found from both the living and dead, it is an eye opening and shocking look into our military history and global politics. I would demand it if I could, but since I can't, I strongly urge every single one of you to have a seat and take a look. It's one of the most moving and informative pieces I have ever seen.

But, it also causes some questions. In a way, it has made me rethink everything.

I can understand our involvement in WWII. I can understand all the ally's involvement. Hitler took over all of Europe save the Great island, and had the same plan for Asia and South America. We had to fight. But hearing of the battles in history books, "reliving" them by way of video games... it just can't do it justice.

I'm watching the Pacific theatre, right? And there's all these piss ant little islands and atolls we need to get a hold of to make the push towards the mainland. And we hear numbers like "4,000 died taking Palau" and it's all relative. "Well, it's more than (random island you never heard of), but we got 9,000 of theirs. At least it's not as bad as the XX,000 we lost at (insert European city you never heard of)". And none of it tells you the real story.

It doesn't tell you of what it's like on the boat, knowing that 1 of every 2 of you, or 2 in every 3, are going to die. It doesn't tell that you go out, knowing it's low tide and you're gonna get hung up on the reef, and you're gonna have to make a 700yd swim in full battle gear just to make it to the gates of hell. It doesn't tell you that the captain is on the horn telling you that their reinforcements have arrived and yours just left, so although this outcome will not be favorable, you will do your job. It doesn't tell you that you're getting shot at the entire trip in shore, by small arms, artillery, and fighter planes alike. It does not tell you that IF you arrive, you will be scaling mounds of your countrymen, who lie in varying states of completeness and decay. It does not tell you that you arrive to a burnout hellscape where the temps reach 110*F and all your drinking water is tainted with gasoline. It does not tell you that the 3 days it is supposed to take to claim the island will actually take 70. It does not tell you that the civilians you are there to liberate have been brainwashed by their captors, and will jump to their deaths right in front of your eyes. It doesn't tell you of the families huddled around a grenade who blow themselves to bits just as you reach them. It does not tell you of the children whose throats are slit by their parents, fearful of rape and torture by Americans. It does not tell you of the thousands of bloated bodies, the parts they are missing, or how the maggots pour from their mouths and eyes like water. It does not tell you that although you have "won", you still have to dig the enemy out of a thousand different tunnels, and many come out wielding tribal-like spears having spent all their ammo and refusing to surrender.

It really makes you think. And cry. But mostly think, and reevaluate.

I watch war now. I tune in to the news, I grab all the in-country film I can find. War's come a long way. No more are we decimating entire cities, no longer are we marching along in scorched Earth campaigns. Now, it's just a video game. "Insurgents" glow white hot against the cool, black desert floor. The camera shakes. The explosive rounds white out the video screen. A voice calls "got him". And the Apache moves on.

But I know what's there.

I don't have a way to bolt all this up into a conclusion or a point. I don't really know what to say. And honestly, I don't even know what I think. But I'd be interested in the thoughts of others. Peaceniks and hippies, warhawks and warriors, those who hold to God and those who don't. Watch this series. If you already have, what are your thoughts?

One historian claimed that wars always had to be fought a generation apart because those who went thru hell once would refuse to do it again. His theory was a bit foolish but it does emphasize that the carnage is not what is expected. The Australians slaughtered at Gallipoli, the marines at every un-named atoll, (it took awhile for MacArthur to think of skipping a few islands now and then), the battle virgins at D-Day are all the big events, but war is usually made up of endless little battles.

Many artillery barrages kill friendly troops, one mobile artillery unit received firing orders in a 270 degree arc, I'm sure you remember the Nisei "Mo Bettah" Regimental Rifle Team that was sent in to rescue the Texas Lost Battalion. Or consider perhaps the bandleader killed when his pilot flew through an unmarked Ordnance Disposal area. Mistakes get made, officers give orders for their glory, not the privates benefit.

Everyone knew Japan was committed to its war in Manchuria and needed Dutch Oil and US scrap steel. So FDR and his Harvard Advisers came up with a plan to cut off sales of scrap steel, thus getting a major incident started by Japan as an excuse for entering the European War FDR so desperately wanted to get America into.

But it all comes down to things like the sailor at Pearl Harbor who was going to be the Best Man at his close friend's wedding on December 14th but on December 7th had to slam the hatch shut and dog it down just when his friend was about to reach it. You have to save the ship, rather than shipmates.

Quote: Fleastiff

One historian claimed that wars always had to be fought a generation apart because those who went thru hell once would refuse to do it again. His theory was a bit foolish but it does emphasize that the carnage is not what is expected.

You shook a thought loose. Thanks.

Looking at WWII, as I said, I see the justification. There is no other choice. No matter the cost to life and soul, you must fight. To fail to do so is to die. I get it.

There was an old man they were interviewing. He's a mainstay on the show. Landed in Normandy, got blown up. They patched him up and sent him back out. He froze in the German winter, legs literally in blocks of ice. They were gonna cut his legs off but he begged to wait. They waited. His legs started working. He could walk. They sent him back out. Then he went to the camps. After all the horrors he seen, it had not prepared him for that. On and on and on this old man fought, a young man then. Lost pieces, lost parts, still he fought.

He recalls a time during the German retreat. They were sifting through the blown out husk of a city and overheard German voices. He had a metal detector, searching for mines. He called for them to surrender. They took a look at his metal detector, thought it an advanced weapon, and did so. Pulled 18 of them out of a cellar. Later, while on patrol, a German soldier came by, armed. He hid. When the soldier passed, he came up behind him and conked him with his pistol. When the man dropped, he jumped on top of him and slit his throat.

This man looks an old physics teacher. Short, fat, frumpy. Eye glazed over with age, hair just a wisp on his head, fingers crooked with time. He sobs openly recalling this kill. "I was a good, Protestant boy.", he pleads. "I played the drums. I worked on the farm. I'd never left my town before. I didn't ask for this." 65 years after it happened, he cries. He didn't ask for this.

But what about now? When those dark thoughts overcome the Fed, I think "What necessitated that sacrifice?" When Hack got blown up and lost his legs, "What necessitated that sacrifice?" When Austin was hit by a sniper and lost his legs, "What necessitated that sacrifice?"

It's the same kids. Kids who never left town, kids who don't know nothing, kids growing up in a little bubble of small town living, playing sports, and smoking weed. Kids who wouldn't shoot a deer unless they can guarantee a clean kill. Now being sent off to kill or be killed, shoot or be shot, to destroy, or be destroyed. And for what?

For what?

Do we even know anymore?

Have we ever?

Quote: Face

For what?

Do we even know anymore?

Have we ever?

A country who doesn't defend it's interests
doesn't last long. They don't fight for freedom
and all the rest. They fight for a way of life,
food on the shelves in the market, and not
having a knock on the door at 3am.

Quote: Face

And for what? Do we even know anymore? Have we ever?

WWI seems to have been a march to folly, and the "peace" treaty a guaranty of 'we will do it again...soon'.

IndoChina was French troops and American Dollars until it eventually became American troops and American Dollars propping up a series of unpopular tyrants. LBJ decided that Press Releases and Cannon Fodder would save him from being the President who lost a war, so he threw privates into the maw to protect his reputation.

Heck, FDR had the authorization on his desk for large flying wings to fly troops trucks and tanks behind Fortress Europa and had just signed it when he learned one of his enemies would profit from it and threw it across the room swearing, so come D-DAY it was a frontal assault.

We island hopped thru the Pacific .... but could have sent bombers in to Japan right away from glaciers in Alaska.
We kept martial law in effect in Hawaii forever because Dole Pineapple loved it. Workers who didn't show up for work were visited at home by armed MPs who determined if they were really sick or not.

The Japanese planned that it would take them two years to put out the fires in the Dutch oil fields in Java and Sumatra but it took them seventy hours due to American incompetence. Singapore fell promptly but it had nothing to do with "the impenetrable jungle" everyone knew a land attack would easily succeed. No mystery, no surprise. Just incompetence.

I have found a renewd interest in history, thanks to the Hardcore History podcast series by Dan Carlin. He is currently telling the story of World War 1.
To me, war is so stupid but once it starts, it has to be completed; it does seem that mankind has moved forward a little in that we dont send millions to the slaughter. Like we did in past generations.
I have a very personal interest in War, my dad and his two brothers fought in World War II, Dad was in tthe marines as a tail gunner stationed on Guam, he made it home to marry and bave 11 kids.
Uncles Tom and Ed didnt make it. ;(.
Ed was a pilot. Shot down some where in Italy after he took out a bridge.
Uncle Tommy, dad's twin, was shot on a beachhead in the Leyte Gulf.
And yes, our last name is Ryan!!!
I keep pictures of Tom and Ed, and I retell their sacrifices whenever I can, they never even had the chance to have children of their own.
I am very proud of their service. Thanks for starting the subject and giving me a chance to share!

Quote: Face

I watch war now. I tune in to the news, I grab all the in-country film I can find. War's come a long way. No more are we decimating entire cities, no longer are we marching along in scorched Earth campaigns. Now, it's just a video game. "Insurgents" glow white hot against the cool, black desert floor. The camera shakes. The explosive rounds white out the video screen. A voice calls "got him". And the Apache moves on.

But I know what's there.

I will have to add the series to my watch list. But this statement is quite the problem. By winning the Gulf War we in many ways lost. The public thinks war is easy and can be done in "100 hours." When Iraqi Freedom happened the big cries were that solders were actually dying and "why is this taking so long?" Everyone forgot Germany and Japan were flattened. It took five or more years to get them to some kind of working condition. South Korea was almost as poor as the North for 25 years after. The George C. Scott speech in "Patton" gives one of the best fees for what is coming when you go to war. "You might well die, you might well achieve personal glory, but no matter what you have to fight!"

But the problem is, as I always say, war and conflict are the norm and peace the exception. The All-Volunteer Army while more effective contains the carnage. I really feel the USA will never win another big war because the will to win is not there. But war willl continue around the world. More people have died in African Wars than most people know. Lots of cannon fodder in populated Asia. Iran will march children to clear minefields in a second. And on and on it will go.

Quote: AZDuffman

I will have to add the series to my watch list.

Do so, you will not be disappointed. Contrary to my rant, it's not a Michael Moore type opinion fest. It's very Joe Friday. Just the facts.

I'm interested now in watching this series if I build up the courage to do so. As Pope John Paul II said, "War is always a failure of humanity."

Quote: FrGamble

I'm interested now in watching this series if I build up the courage to do so. As Pope John Paul II said, "War is always a failure of humanity."

You once referred to me as a "prophet". If we skip all the holy stuff, we eventually come to the base definition of a "person regarded as, or claiming to be, an inspired teacher or leader." I can dig that. But you can't teach about math without knowing math, you can't teach about sex without having had it, you can't teach about addiction without being in it. You need to experience it to understand it.

In your line, I'm sure you have to deal with war-like issues. Violence, hate, misunderstandings, pain, orders, duty, death.

You have to watch it. It will change your life.