Yet another aviation thread.

Quote: Pacomartin

That is why I emphasized that the numbers were from a Volaris Investor presentation. They can't lie, but they can cherry pick numbers to make them look as good as possible.

Even though VOL and Interjet are 10 years old, I think the average passenger judges low fares by how much cheaper than Aeromexico they are. But you'd think investors and people in the board would know better.

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Still, those are very high cost numbers attributed to Interjet.

It gets complicated. Interjet flies fewer people per plane, but perhaps more luggage. The latter is hard to estimate. People don't carry unneeded luggage even if it's included in the fare. I've never checked a single bag on a domestic business flight in my life. I either fly for the day, and carry only the laptop bag (often without the laptop), or I go overnight and bring a tiny carry-on bag. It saves a lot of time.

Oh, I was puzzled by what Interjet charges fees for, as they have few in-flight related fees. So maybe that revenue is the Airport shuttle, cab service and parking services they sell.

BTW I thought Delta already owned half of AM.

Quote: Nareed

BTW I thought Delta already owned half of AM.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-aeromexico-m-a-delta-air-lines-idUSKCN0T735C20151118

Delta announced their intentions to purchase up to 49% lof AM ast November for about $1.5 billion. The offer is tied to an application for antitrust immunity in both countries.

AM now has 9 Boeing 787 Dreamliner since August 2013 with another one on order. Seven of the nine are leased. They have retired all the B767s but they might be on the tail end of heir leases on the four Boeing 777s .

The oldest Boeing 777-2Q8(ER) was leased by Aeroméxico starting on 22. Mar 2006, so if they intend to give them up after ten years, we should know in a few weeks.

Aeromexico’s fleet plan and will give the carrier an all-787 widebody fleet consisting of 20 aircraft by 2020.

BTW, though I still think a twin-aisle narrow body is a great idea, I don't think it will ever happen.

What can be done, and should be done, is to develop a single aisle plane with a wider aisle. The effect won't be as good, but it would help. Say something wide enough for a the service cart and one person to pass each other at the same time.

I think this was done already by Bombardier in their newest C-series regional jets.

Quote: Pacomartin

The oldest Boeing 777-2Q8(ER) was leased by Aeroméxico starting on 22. Mar 2006, so if they intend to give them up after ten years, we should know in a few weeks.

From the ground, at the angle I have, it's hard to tell a B-737 from a 777 or a 787. Sometimes you can see the winglets, sometimes not. Distinguishing a 787 from a 777 is impossible. So I can't say what I've seen lately.

I know I failed to see the AF A380. I will admit to lack of effort. I could have tracked it any time.


On other things, the 747 seems finally to be on the way out. She will be missed.

It will be interesting to see what Boeing and Airbus come up with as the next long haul wide body. If, that is, they don't go into cookie-cutter mode and simply churn out new versions of the A330 and B777, which is exactly what they're doing now.

I can't see either venturing into a 4-engine design. Not when the 747 is on the way out and the 380 is struggling. But how big can twin engine designs get? Maybe you could do a, hypothetical AB790 (ha, ha) with huge engines and a hump for a double deck, a la 747, which might even serve as a lounge (premium classes seem to favor these), at least in part. But there must be a limit between engine size and drag.

Another idea would be to widen the fuselage, rather than piling on decks, and adding a third engine on the back, a la L-1011 (the S-duct looks a lot better than the DC-10 stuck-on design). A wider fuselage would allow, depending on how wide they can get, comfortable 3-4-3 seating, uncomfortable 4-4-3 seating or some rather creative use of space (maybe bunks in economy?)

The General Electric GE90 jet engine is 134" compared to 148" for the fuselage of a Boeing 737. It is the exclusive engine of the 777-300ER. Japan Airlines flies this plane with 78 Business class seats (38" x 18.5" wide) and 422 Economy seats (31" x 17.3" wide) for a total of 500 seats. The plane is rated for 550 total seats in one class to equal the capacity of the B747-200B.

Quote: Nareed

But how big can twin engine designs get? Maybe you could do a, hypothetical AB790 (ha, ha) with huge engines and a hump for a double deck, a la 747, which might even serve as a lounge (premium classes seem to favor these), at least in part. But there must be a limit between engine size and drag.

While not a theoretical maximum the GE90 is about 11 years old an no one is building a bigger jet engine. So I think 550 seats is going to remain the maximum for the foreseeable future for a twinjet.

I think there have been only a handful of 4 engine jets rated to handle more than 550 seats anyway.
747-300/400/400ER : 660 seats
747-8i :605 seats
A380-380 : 853 seats

British Airways has announced that they will be pursuing used A380's for Iberia. Presumably candidates are the Air Malaysia jets and the Singapore Airlines jets are coming to the end of their lease.

Air France began A380 service to Mexico City on 12 January 2016 (3 times per week).

Quote: Pacomartin

While not a theoretical maximum the GE90 is about 11 years old an no one is building a bigger jet engine. So I think 550 seats is going to remain the maximum for the foreseeable future for a twinjet.

That's a lot, though a bit theoretical. No one really will pack them that tight, except maybe JAL in domestic routes is they still do that.

also, Korean Airlines (Korean Air??) packs under 500 passengers, if memory serves, on their A380. Partly this is due to the presence of a duty-free shop in the back of economy on the lower deck. I've seen pictures. It turns out Korean makes a great deal of money from duty-free sales onboard.

Bottom line is airlines value economy over size by far, and twin jets are more economical. But there is a niche market for large planes, as demonstrated by the A380. Partly this is due to the room used for luxuries for first class passengers, like showers and suites, and more (see Etihad's first class), and some business class perks like the bar/lounge and lie-flat beds, as much as carrying capacity in economy.

A niche plane, however, does not justify a new design.

Crazy late night thought:

If cargo holds are going empty because of bag fees, could the pressurized spaces below-decks be used for something?

Probably not...

Quote: Nareed

If cargo holds are going empty because of bag fees, could the pressurized spaces below-decks be used for something?

Allegiant (repeating fare below) charges $100 to carry a small dog in a container that fits under the seat. The dog must be able to stand in it's container. They don't give a weight limit, but I doubt that anything much over 5 kg can stand in a container that fits under a seat. Allegiant does not offer the option of packing a heavier sedated dog as cargo.

$72.47 Airfare (base)
$5.44 Federal Excise Tax
$4.00 Segment Fees (on nonstop flight)
$2.25 Passenger Facility Charge (PFC)
$5.60 Sept 11 Security Fee
$13.00 Carrier Usage Charge
$4.22 Credit Card Surcharge
$15.00 One Carry-on Bag
$14.00 Trip Flexibility Insurance
---------------------------------- Total taxes and fees 87.6%

So people are willing to spend a fee larger than the base airfare to carry a Yorkshire Terrier or a Maltese. I think they would pay double that amount for a set up that lets the dog automatically out to a larger area where it can walk, and with a voice connection to the owner.

Quote: Pacomartin

Allegiant (repeating fare below) charges $100 to carry a small dog in a container that fits under the seat. The dog must be able to stand in it's container. They don't give a weight limit, but I doubt that anything much over 5 kg can stand in a container that fits under a seat.

I noticed Volaris has a fee for a dog or cat as carry-on, under the seat, "cargo" of up to ten kg, including the crate/cage/container. I don't recall for how much.

This seems good, but I bet you're not allowed to take the dog out.

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So people are willing to spend a fee larger than the base airfare to carry a Yorkshire Terrier or a Maltese. I think they would pay double that amount for a set up that lets the dog automatically out to a larger area where it can walk, and with a voice connection to the owner.

Oh, people will pay a great deal more to have their dogs or cats. Take, for instance, the hassle and expense of taking your pet abroad.

Quote: Nareed

I noticed Volaris has a fee for a dog or cat as carry-on, under the seat, "cargo" of up to ten kg, including the crate/cage/container. I don't recall for how much.This seems good, but I bet you're not allowed to take the dog out.

Allegiant doesn't let you take the dog out either. Like I said they don't have a weight restriction, but the dog must be able to stand up in a crate that must be 9" high or less.

http://pet-express.com/