An interesting comparison

I have prepared a compilation of quotes on the threat of "cultural subversion" "invasion" or whatever, translated from German:

"If we allow their number to increase, we allow the destruction of the pillars of our culture."

"The deepest shame the Germans inflicted on themselves, they welcomed them as guests. But no German must rest until the German soil is rid of them."

"Their religion encourages them to exploit all 'nonbelievers', to destroy them physically and morally, to take their life, honor and belongings, to use open violence against them. Their religion mandates it!"

"Open your eyes, Christians, fight for your faith and your wellbeing."

"A national entity must only accept elements that it can assimiliate for the benefit and strength of the nation. They are not that kind of element. They will corrupt our culture and our future."

"They strive for their own laws and customs, to replace our own, and they will not rest until they succeed."

Do you agree? Or have you already realized what I am doing here?

All these sentences do not refer to Muslims, but to Jews, written between 1890 and 1945. However I have read a version of these sentences in this forum regarding muslims, with little to no pushback. So if you agree with the statements on this forum, do you also agree with those sentences above? If you don't, what is the difference?

- Because you like jews and hate muslims? Why is that?

- Because it turns out, the Nazis were wrong, and the jews didn't destroy our culture after all? But what if the Nazis hadn't intervened and murdered six million of them? Did they save us?

- Because, this time, it is for real? That's what the Nazis believed as well.

There may be people on this forum that will have a defense mechanism to all of this. Nothing of this will get through to them. Defense, that's what they are all about. They are here (or maybe I am wrong and there aren't any) to spew their hatred and discontent. And the perception of an audience makes their miserable lives a little better. I did not post this for them. I don't care about them. I posted this for those members that have and open mind, but maybe sometimes don't know how to respond.

An influx of 1 million refugees from a different culture is a challenge. I would rather not have them come to Germany in that number. But that is wishful thinking. They are here, they need help, they can't safely go back to Syria. It creates problems, big problems. But the biggest problem is not the logistics or their integration. The biggest problem is this: This "crisis" provides a canvas, a stage, for the hatemongers and racists living on the fringe of society. Suddenly people might be scared into listening to them.

Please do not listen to them. Create an informed opinion. Be wary of blanket statements and summary judgements. And sometimes, talk back. The hatemongers will not listen, but the lurkers will. Let's not create the impression that this forum might be welcoming to racists.

Quote: Canyonero

Let's not create the impression that this forum might be welcoming to racists.

We're pretty into pedantry at DT, so let's start with this snippet right here. It bothers me kind of a lot, because it's the misuse of a buzzword. Racism is believing that certain attributes are a characteristic of race, and that said characteristics make one inferior or superior based on it. I often state my dislike for urbanites, and it's because they're usually bombastic and brash which I find deeply annoying, at best. Just based on numbers alone, you'd probably find that many if not most bombastic and brash urbanites happen to be black. Is my dislike of urbanites easily acceptable, as it so far has seemed to be? Or am I a racist? Many urbanites look down on country folk. They don't like the "God and guns" culture, or their slow walking and talking, or how the whole town smells like cow s#$%. Since most God-n-guns, s#$% smelling country folk are white, does that mean the hater is racist?

No, and no, and no.

IMO, it's OK to not like something, even if that something is a thing another person does, or even a thing that another person is. I dislike and sometimes even hate Judeo-Christian religions, yet I get along with AZD and FrG just fine. Even better than fine, I would say. EB and AZD think drug use makes you stupid and is a waste of life, yet they get along with me just fine. I like to think we're intelligent enough to not need moral police forcing empty, tired platitudes upon us, and we act like adults. We hold our views without shame, and I feel we are closer to reaching true tolerance, not this BS tolerance where you're supposed to just accept everything out of fear of offending someone.

Quote: Canyonero

- Because you like jews and hate muslims? Why is that?

- Because it turns out, the Nazis were wrong, and the jews didn't destroy our culture after all? But what if the Nazis hadn't intervened and murdered six million of them? Did they save us?

- Because, this time, it is for real? That's what the Nazis believed as well.

Because this is always the way it is.

Listen to the immigration debate, and you get much the same arguments. the same arguments have been bandied about for centuries. Right now it's Mexicans and Muslims. Before it was Irish and Italians (both Lilly-white and acceptable now). At some point it was the Chinese. And that's just in America.

If you think other nations are better, sadly that's not the case. While much of Mexico's harsh treatment of central- and south-American immigrants is driven by US anti-immigration stance, some of it is home-grown.

A culture is not something static and unchangeable. Is US culture the same as it was in the 1960s? Was 1960s America the same as it was in the 1930s? Do I need to keep asking this question going farther back in time?

A culture isn't sacrosanct, either. Some aspects deserve to be preserved, some deserve to be thrown into the trash. Cultures change all the time, some change is driven by immigrants, to be sure, some is driven by the native-born. Some is driven by external influences. Some is driven by technology. Some is driven by science. Some is driven by politics. Is all change good? No. Is all change bad? No. Is any given change inevitable? No. But change itself is inevitable.

One can rail against immigration as a means of keeping the culture intact. But the culture will change anyway.

Quote: Canyonero

Do you agree? Or have you already realized what I am doing here?

That's what I get for letting one more group of mf's have a voice anywhere near my head. I already knew the score, but rode along for awhile for my own selfish reasons. Therapeutic actually. But the covers seem to be coming off, and seeing as how you decided to point it out, the racism disgusts me.

The last few comments made it quite clear that this is a lilly white family. Regardless, the neocon/lib party line is full of hate and contempt for anyone who doesn't group think like them. What fools actually believed the Neocons are pro-american?

That is just the way it is. If you are going to be a, "live and let live" personality, you are going to have to suffer a lot of shit. Frankly, I am a little disappointed in Face. My mistake. In the past he had spoken to the feeling when folks would make jokes about indians, [being of mixed race]. I am as well, but to survive in an ignorant and bigoted world, one needs to learn to let that slide off, or everyday will be more of a struggle than it already is.

I have taken the position previously that people are just people and generally everyone wants the same things and has the same feelings. Westerners are too lazy to inform themselves of the persecution going on and by who in MENA. It doesn't matter if it is pointed out, if they are shown, even with clickable links. Their minds are made up. If you just don't want to sacrifice your future, your kids and your money to destroy all Muslims, apparently you are a muslim lover. Same apparently for blacks. It appears incredibly easy to just gloss over the murder of 90% of american indians and easier yet to ignore their suffering today, here in America, where everyone has religious freedom, and...rights. The unalienable kind. That's what we fight for here, equality don't you know?

As long as those who's got, gets, all will be well. Only two country's out of 200 approve of the Palestinian genocide being unleashed on the victims within the boundaries drawn out by the Sikes Picot, where 800K Palestinians were forced to re locate. It won't matter until it is them at the end of the whip, or their children going to die in a foreign land.


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Quote:

Because you like jews and hate muslims? Why is that?

There is an agenda. There is a reason for the dumbing of America. Some here seem to think that if they follow along with the party platform it will mean money for them, and basically screw everyone else. That is America, the tool box, full of tools. A support group for moneychangers.

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Quote:

Because it turns out, the Nazis were wrong, and the jews didn't destroy our culture after all? But what if the Nazis hadn't intervened and murdered six million of them? Did they save us?

Bibi Netanyahoo now says it wasn't Hitler's idea, it was the Muslim Palestinians that put Hitler up to it.

Quote:

There may be people on this forum that will have a defense mechanism to all of this. Nothing of this will get through to them. Defense, that's what they are all about. They are here (or maybe I am wrong and there aren't any) to spew their hatred and discontent. And the perception of an audience makes their miserable lives a little better. I did not post this for them. I don't care about them. I posted this for those members that have and open mind, but maybe sometimes don't know how to respond.

Good post Canyonero, thanks.

Quote:

Please do not listen to them. Create an informed opinion. Be wary of blanket statements and summary judgements. And sometimes, talk back. The hatemongers will not listen, but the lurkers will. Let's not create the impression that this forum might be welcoming to racists.

Maybe?

The haters tried to convince the world, they could bomb and idea [Islam] out of existence [using the US] and it would disappear. Now they are surprised that a few escaped? Now, they have brought this migration upon themselves, bombing an idea is like trying to squeeze a handful of water. The only tool left is to foment hate and hope the locals will do more of their dirty work.

Quote: Face

It bothers me kind of a lot, because it's the misuse of a buzzword.

While I disagree that it is a misuse, since it fits your definition quite nicely, let's not argue about definitions. Even if you ignore that word in my post, I think it is still clear what state of mind and level of discourse I am arguing against.

Quote: Face

BS tolerance where you're supposed to just accept everything out of fear of offending someone.

My sentiment exactly, and that is why I am speaking out against summary judgements, scapegoating and fearmongering now, because tolerating this would be, as you call it, BS tolerance. There are certain values our cultures are founded upon, and I will defend them.

Just to name two:

USA: We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness

Germany: No person shall be favoured or disfavoured because of sex, parentage, race, language, homeland and origin, faith, or religious or political opinions. No person shall be disfavoured because of disability.

Quote: Nareed

Listen to the immigration debate, and you get much the same arguments. the same arguments have been bandied about for centuries. Right now it's Mexicans and Muslims. Before it was Irish and Italians (both Lilly-white and acceptable now). At some point it was the Chinese. And that's just in America.

That frustrates me a bit. I probably wont change this eternal cycle on an internet forum. Still, I keep trying to make a positive difference.

I like your interpretation that this is really a fear of change. It makes sense. And it might help to understand those people a little better and help others not to fall for that kind of rethoric.

Quote: Canyonero

That frustrates me a bit. I probably wont change this eternal cycle on an internet forum. Still, I keep trying to make a positive difference.

I like your interpretation that this is really a fear of change. It makes sense. And it might help to understand those people a little better and help others not to fall for that kind of rethoric.

I'm grateful for sure of your desire to make a positive difference and your challenging and thoughtful posts. However, my biggest fear is this refugee crisis is not a fear of change, but rather a fear of those unwilling to entertain the possibility of change. My prayer is that those who are now coming in direct contact with at least the remnants of a Christian Europe will be open to its beauty, freedom, equality, and history. They will see how women are treated and respected and change their views. They will encounter a God who has become one of us and see that every human person regardless of faith or color or sex or ethnicity is a manifestation of God. My fear is that they will be not open to this encounter and close themselves in. That they will be bullied and scared by those in their own ranks to not be touched by the "Western" ideas so influenced by Judeo-Christian values. This in turn will only fuel the fire of those who irrationally fear any change and cause great turmoil and violence. Please Lord protect us and make us ALL open to change.

Quote: petroglyph

That is just the way it is. If you are going to be a, "live and let live" personality, you are going to have to suffer a lot of shit. Frankly, I am a little disappointed in Face. My mistake. In the past he had spoken to the feeling when folks would make jokes about indians, [being of mixed race]. I am as well, but to survive in an ignorant and bigoted world, one needs to learn to let that slide off, or everyday will be more of a struggle than it already is.

Disappointed how and why?

As always, I'm trying to find the middle and make myself somewhere comfortable to stay. I don't think it's OK to hate on someone for certain things, but what right do I have to say to someone else that they must accept it?

I dig PC, but just like tolerance, it has been skewed past the point of being a positive and is instead used as a weapon (IMO). Let me make an example here. Last time I went to a Leafs game, I passed a trio of black city folk. They pretty much embodied everything I hate when I say "I hate urbanites". All of them dressed in flashy garb and excessive bling. All of them bombastic and braggadocios. Talking on the phone so loud about bitch this and bitch that that I heard them coming from three whole blocks away. It was the typical in-your-face stuff that young city folk seem to embody. I do not like this behavior. Taken out of context, any of my comments or thoughts in my head could be looked at by an observer and they could say "Face is racist. He hates black people / their culture." And that's just not the truth. Urbanites are also white, and white kids flash their bling and walk around with their chests puffed out and talk in an abrasive manner, too. And I "hate" them just as much. You put me on the shore of the Chatahoochee with a lemonade in the sun, and my fishing partner could be white, black, Chinese or Cuban, I don't care. You're into what I'm into, good chance I'll like you.

That's what I'm speaking to. I don't like the urbanite culture, and I will not bow to it. I'm not going to go into the city and demand they change, because I'm tolerant. I believe in freedom. The city owes me nothing. I simply choose not to go there or involve myself in their activities. And if they have to come out here, I don't expect them to enjoy simple pleasures or open a window to let the sweet smell of a newly manured field to enter their home. They don't have to like it. Just don't go around trying to force "here" to acclimate to YOU.

Does that make sense? If it does, where's the problem? It does hurt me when people talk foul about Natives in broad strokes. Even when they strike on a nugget of truth, it still bothers me. But when AZD said some stuff that got to me, what's the proper action? Do I jump down his throat and jab at his race / culture? Do I cry "racists!" and try to garner support to shun him? Or do I look inside myself to see what hurt, and look at his words to see what he means by using them? I did the latter, and things have worked out. Some of my pain is learned behavior, because we have been taught that words are suddenly the most damaging thing in America. That's not on AZD, that's on me. And my reaction to most things that bother me or hurt me is to engage in a dialog with the person. I've done it a million times on WoV and nearly every single person I have done so with have become a person I am now "close" with. Me and AZD have clashed about many things. We are very close. EB has gotten on my ass just as bad as he's gotten on anyone else's ass. He and I are very close. I "fight" with boymimbo, rxwine, terapined, and a number of other people who have identified as "liberal" about guns and crime and punishment, and I highly enjoy the presence and friendship I have with all of them.

That's what I mean. I might "hate" the Catholic church. I still love FrG, and it didn't stop me from going to the Free Methodist in town and reveling in the Halloween splendor this week, and it didn't stop me from shaking the pastor's hand and exchanging niceties with him, and I sure as hell have never fire bombed the place. Real hate is a problem, and we do ourselves an injustice when we call all this inconsequential garbage "hate".

Thanks a lot petroglyph, for your post and your encouragement. I really needed to see that there are others here that I can relate to, like you and Nareed. I have enormous respect for the Wizard, he's the Pope of the worldwide gambling community. But that alone would not be enough to stick around at DT (or even WoO) if I absolutely couldn't relate to anyone else.

Quote: petroglyph

It won't matter until it is them at the end of the whip

Exactly! That is why people need race or religion as a qualifier to make sure it couldn't happen to them. One can wish bombs and death and torture unto them, if one feels confident they will never be on the receiving end.

Thank you, Canyonero, for contributing. It is sobering and a necessary reflection. For our own national history there are other painful examples - the one looming largest for me is the way American citizens of Japanese origin were treated - as if the Constitution did not exist in WW2. And this all enacted by some of the most forward thinking progressives of the time [then again Liberals very readily turn to coercion, I have noticed]

I think we humans have to acknowledge that we are naturally very clannish. There are biological and evolutionary reasons for this, and we have to be on guard against when it makes us do stupid things.

In the case of Muslims who are American citizens, I would not wish to give them anything but the full benefit of that citizenship. They should enjoy completely their full civil rights.

I am, however, still feeling fully justified in making the determination that not only are they as a group resistant to assimilation, they also have unacceptable percentages with violent resistance to it. Acting on these determinations is totally misplaced when it comes to those who are citizens. However, I think as a nation we are almost obligated to factor these things when it comes to Immigration. It is unfortunate that others will expand that obligation to think it also includes our citizens, like FDR and his administration did. If we can make these decisions to the degree it is possible without sinking into language that sounds like ethnic cleansing is on the agenda, we need to. It can be a matter of national survival.

Quote: Face

I feel we are closer to reaching true tolerance, not this BS tolerance where you're supposed to just accept everything out of fear of offending someone.

So, do you a call a kid a retard or special needs?

As someone put it to me recently, it's just respect to use terms people want you to use for them. It's disrespect to do otherwise.

Is there something wrong with that idea? Just like people want to be called by a certain name usually. Maybe not even their real name but a nick name or their middle name. If you just insist on using something different they don't like, why? Most people don't like to feel like they're being called dickhead all day or whatever.

If next year, you want to be called a "native northern being", that's what I call you. Maybe somebody in your family wants to be called something different. No big deal. Maybe you don't care one way or the other. That's fine too.

Now, I if I am fighting with someone, my intention isn't necessarily to be respectful to them. But everyday use, why not? Nobody does anything to me, no reason to offend them on purpose. I just use what they prefer. If I get it wrong, I just change it next time around.