Neo-monophysitism

Quote: FrGamble

Job has no idea that God or Satan are concerned about him

NOT JOB!!! The idiot who wrote the story!
The ego centered moron who invented a
god who has nothing better to do than sit around
and worry about his pitiful creation.

The ego worship of the Yahweh religions is
breathtaking to behold. A god who creates
an intricate universe, all so he can be worshiped
by the creatures he created. It's a child's
story, it's a story created by ignorant nomads
who made it up around the campfire at night.
It's insulting to the intelligence of an informed
person.

Quote: FrGamble

Job has no idea that God or Satan are concerned about him for very different reasons. The end of the story of Job shows pretty clearly, as Nareed has pointed out, that YHWH shows Job that He is not the most important thing in the universe.

So Jehovah is very interested in how Job will handle being tortured, but this is not about Job.

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He pretty clearly debunks any hubris in Job and puts him in his place.

Just what is his place? Unquestioning obedience? It seems Jehovah doesn't like people who try to learn or understand anything past what they're told.

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Yet at the same time God shows His deep love for Job.

"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

Quote: Nareed

So Jehovah is very interested in how Job will handle being tortured, but this is not about Job.

It is about how Job handles the inevitable suffering that we all face in life to in the end grow in his faith in God. I think this much is clear.

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Just what is his place? Unquestioning obedience? It seems Jehovah doesn't like people who try to learn or understand anything past what they're told.

His place, like all of us, is to recognize that there is a God and we are not Him. That we are creatures given extraordinary gifts and free will so that we may return the love of God and share love with others.

Now before you say I don't know what that word means again (great movie quote by the way), maybe you should say what you think love is so we can try to figure out where we differ.

Isn't the entire book of Job about us trying to figure out the mystery of suffering? God desires us to use one of the greatest gifts He has given us - our intellect to wrestle with mystery of life and figure out this amazing world and universe we have all around us.





"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

Quote: FrGamble

It is about how Job handles the inevitable suffering that we all face in life to in the end grow in his faith in God. I think this much is clear.

Yes, but you keep doing the doublethink: it's all about Job, but Job isn't important enough for all to be about him.

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His place, like all of us, is to recognize that there is a God and we are not Him.

The second part is entirely correct. One cannot be that which does not exist.

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That we are creatures given extraordinary gifts and free will so that we may return the love of God and share love with others.

Now before you say I don't know what that word means again (great movie quote by the way), maybe you should say what you think love is so we can try to figure out where we differ.

That's a very hard term to define with even a fair degree of precision. What love is not, is flattery and ass-kissing out of fear of the consequences. That's what prayers read like.

If you've ever read historical documents from ancient times, you'll notice a lot of this. Particularly the use of different honorifics for the same person, abject obsequiousness from supplicants, etc. This was because a noble, and more so a prince or a king, was legally above the supplicant. More importantly, such people had few or no limits to their behavior. A noble could punish a commoner without thought of consequences.

That's how most believers treat their gods. As powerful beings who might lash out at any time, for any reason, and we'd better crawl before them and mollify them, or else.

You can talk about "love" all you want, but the practice of religion belies the notion,

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Isn't the entire book of Job about us trying to figure out the mystery of suffering?

Did you not read the opening passages? There is as much mystery as in a Scooby Doo cartoon.

Language is a tool, and the word love serve's the same function as stripes on a tiger. It is camouflage, and for much the same reason.

Quote: petroglyph

Language is a tool, and the word love serve's the same function as stripes on a tiger. It is camouflage, and for much the same reason.

Very good point. Loving god is impossible, you
can't love something that doesn't exist. For us
to love someone, or some creature, they have
to have lovable characteristics. My dog is
friendly and cute and always happy to do what
I want to do. He's lovable. I love him. My cats
are cute and entertaining, I love them.

God, the invented Christian god, has no loving
traits at all. My wife will say she loves him because
he sent Jesus. That's like saying you love the
mailman because he brought you a package you
wanted. God promises punishment if you don't
do as he says, he promises punishment forever
if he's not obeyed. This is not a lovable trait.

God is not cute, he's not fun, he's not a good
companion, mostly because he doesn't exist
at all. The last thing he would be if he did exist
is lovable. People fear god, so they pretend
to love him, hoping god won't notice they are
scared to death of their image of him.

Quote: Nareed

That's a very hard term to define with even a fair degree of precision. What love is not, is flattery and ass-kissing out of fear of the consequences.

I would agree about what you say love is not. Back to what love is: I do think love is recognizing the truth of a person and honoring and respecting them, not our of fear or the consequences, but because it is what they deserve. Contrary to your crazy belief there is indeed an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God who has become one of us in the person of Jesus Christ to show us the way to live and to free us from our sins so that we may live forever in Heaven. What you see as flattery is rather recognition of a truth about who God is and a rightful loving and honoring of Him, for the pure reason that is what He deserves.

You might not believe that and maybe you have experiences that have shown you that those who believe in God do not represent Him very well. You might believe like Job's friends that you have gotten a raw deal and that if there is a God one should at best ignore Him and at worst curse Him and die. I recognize that, but let's not get it twisted here, the love I have for God is real and is not based on flattery, or fear, or because I have somehow been blessed by Him with a great life (because I haven't).

What Evenbob seems to equate love to in one of his recent posts is feelings. You can't love something you can't see. You can't love something not there like a dog to lick your face. Well, you can love something very real but not visible. You can receive great comfort from something greater than and idea that gives you real hope and helps make life more meaningful and with purpose. Most important you can love the truth and the truth is that there is a God who loves you, Bob, me and all of us. I'm sorry if you can't feel it or understand it, but believe me it is very, very real.

Quote: FrGamble

Well, you can love something very real but not visible. You can receive great comfort from something greater than and idea that gives you real hope and helps make life more meaningful and with purpose.

Yes, you can love an idea, people do it
every day. They love the idea of getting
thinner, of quitting smoking, of finding
a soulmate, of their child getting into a
great college. You can also love the
idea of a loving god, even though he
isn't real. That's what you do every day,
it gives you strength and keeps you
going. I don't need that, you do. Each to
his own.

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I'm sorry if you can't feel it or understand it, but believe me it is very, very real.

It's real for you, don't be sorry it's not real
for me or other atheists. Be happy it's real
for you. You keep it real by the constant
reinforcement you give it. It's seems real,
so to you it is real. The fact that you have to
make it real for everybody is what's bothersome.
And in some Yahweh religions, very dangerous.

Quote: FrGamble

What you see as flattery is rather recognition of a truth about who God is and a rightful loving and honoring of Him, for the pure reason that is what He deserves.

The attitude of people in prayer is submission, like a dog wagging her tail and showing her throat and belly. That's not love.

Dogs will submit to any dominant being, be it other dogs or people, but they're very particular with their affections.

Quote: FrGamble

You might believe like Job's friends that you have gotten a raw deal and that if there is a God one should at best ignore Him and at worst curse Him and die.

Is your fatalistic view of life your own or the one favored by the church?

If Jehovah were real we'd have to fight him and kill him.

Lester del Rey actually wrote a story along those lines, only the fight is against aliens backed by "god." Nice idea, but underexecuted in typical del Rey fashion: long buildup, small payoff. If you want to look it up, it's called "For I Am A Jealous People."

Really, try to comprehend this: there is no such thing as "God." So any choices involving a god are as realistic as deciding whether to obtain Jedi training or attend Starfleet Academy.

If the story of Job were real, or even realistic, then I could ignore not just the opening, but all passages involving Jehovah, in particular his put-down of the protagonist near the end. Then his friends should be figuring out how best to help him, if possible, and offer support. Rather than wonder why Jehovah is mad at him.

Why do we suffer? Because we leave ourselves open to it. We form bonds of love and friendship in an uncertain, largely unpredictable universe that is indifferent to our existence. Our lives are of indeterminate but finite duration. We will all die, someday. We have no guarantees as to how our lives will play out, how will the lives of our friends and family will play out. We are vulnerable to disease, accident, malice and more.