Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

The Wikipedia article on him is very interesting and it sounds very fair. He was a very humble and pious man who sacrificed a cushy academic career to serve heroically in the missions. I had to laugh a little bit at the cherry picked quotes you guys were throwing out there. There is a lot of support for him and his canonization from Native American groups and historians. He is certainly a sinner and most definitely a saint.

I think the things that he did, the things that we cherry picked from the article, should disqualify him from sainthood

You shouldn't get to cherry pick the good things that he did to make him a saint.

That isn't really surprising, though, all of the distasteful things he did were sanctioned by the church.

Quote: FrGamble

Petro I am really sorry for whatever happened to you to make you so against the Church.

The second I saw this it reminded me of when Bill Clinton apologized to black people for slavery. lol Brilliant move really, how could he lose? It wasn't his fault, but he got all the accolades for finally being the first president that ever apologized. I agree that the church owes the world an apology, I don't need one. But I would appreciate some truthiness.

Quote:

"You anger has reached a point where you have been led into illogical lunacy..."

I don't think of myself as angry, I think of myself as pragmatic. You are as much in denial as anyone I have ever come across. "The first step to getting better is admitting you have a problem".

You say I'm a lunatic? Come on, nearly every week you get up in front of a bunch of people and pretend you are recreating a 2000 year old dead man out of a cracker and drink his blood. It doesn't appear that it's just Jesus, that you think had magic powers, you think you do as well. It's hard for me to believe you can't see how crazy that seems. Your parishioners must have "Stockholm syndrome".

I'm not "angry" at the church, I am disappointed, and frankly a little disgusted. They had so much potential, so much property, wealth, and influence, and they blew it, while continuing to defend the indefensible. For ten thousand years the indigenous peoples were happy and thrived, until Serra got there, and took everything he could. He left them decimated, demoralized and diseased. You and the Pope seem to think that is morally superior. We apparently view the world through different lenses. There is a schism between what is good, true, moral, and what you people do.

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While Junipero Serra was not perfect, please take an objective look at his efforts, the good he did,

Is it impossible for you to think of indians as human beings? Even his competitor Neva said he was deceitful. Often going behind his compadre's back's, undermining them to aggrandize himself. Typical.

Quote: Evenbob

Jesus will forgive
anybody.

Absolutely true.

Quote: Dalex64

I think the things that he did, the things that we cherry picked from the article, should disqualify him from sainthood

You shouldn't get to cherry pick the good things that he did to make him a saint.

Why? Should Mary Magdalene or other saints who have made mistakes in their lives be disqualified from sainthood? Peter denied the Lord three times and Paul used to kill Christians for a living and they are two of our greatest saints.

Quote:

That isn't really surprising, though, all of the distasteful things he did were sanctioned by the church.

What was sanctioned by the Church was his care for the indigenous people of Mexico and California. The Church supported his efforts to treat them with equal dignity as human persons protect them from colonists and ensure they were treated fairly. The Church I am sure also supported his efforts to bring peace between warring tribes, to teach farming and other new technologies. What we both consider distasteful today like corporal punishment and some extreme forms of penance was the cultural realities of the day. Again it might be helpful to put yourself into his day in order to see how great a saint he was.

Quote: petroglyph

I agree that the church owes the world an apology, I don't need one. But I would appreciate some truthiness.

We all as individuals and institutions should be quick to apologize for our many mistakes. I also appreciate truthy things. Your warped version of history is not truth and mine is given to defend the Church even in its egregious mistakes.

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You say I'm a lunatic?

Your statements are divorced from reality but you are not a lunatic. Sometimes I respond too quickly and reflect the vitriol I receive. I know you don't need it, but I'm sorry.

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Come on, nearly every week you get up in front of a bunch of people and pretend you are recreating a 2000 year old dead man out of a cracker and drink his blood.

Please know some theology and what the Church actually teaches before saying really ignorant things such as this. The problem so often is not what the Church teaches but what people like you think the Church teaches.

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Is it impossible for you to think of indians as human beings?

That is exactly what Serra gave his life to do. The fundamental teaching of the Church is that from conception to natural death everyone is a human being of inestimable worth.

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Even his competitor Neva said he was deceitful. Often going behind his compadre's back's, undermining them to aggrandize himself. Typical.

Sounds like a competitor and a hater. This is obviously not true. The part of Junipero aggrandizing himself slips you back into lunacy.

Quote: FrGamble

Again it might be helpful to put yourself into his day in order to see how great a saint he was.

In a nutshell, this is why Serra was so hated.

'Father Serra once wrote, “When I saw their general behavior, (Calif native Americans) their pleasing ways and engaging manners, my heart was broken to think that they were still deprived of the light of the Holy Gospel.” He was determined to turn them into Christians. That, he thought, was the only way to save their souls from damnation.'

This is the evil arrogance of the Church. In
order to force their sick way of life on an
indigenous people, they first have to destroy
their way of life. All in the name of a 'loving'
god. Take a happy, productive people, and
enslave them, whip them, turn them into slave
laborers, lock them up in missions, all in the
name of doing what's 'good' for them. That's
some sick shit, folks.

"Historians estimate that 60,000 indigenous Californians had died in the missions by the time the Mexican government sold them to private landowners in the 1830s. Over the Spanish mission era, the system contributed to the direct and indirect deaths of half of the California Indian population, which is estimated at 300,000 to 1 million people before contact with the Catholic missionaries."

Quote: Evenbob

That's
some sick s*&%, folks.

What you write is very sick and often untrue or deliberate exaggerations.

Quote: FrGamble

What you write is very sick and often untrue or deliberate exaggerations.

What are you talking about, the stats
are everywhere about the atrocities
of the Church wiping out an entire
culture in Calif. You act like this is
news to you.

Quote: FrGamble

.... Your warped version of history is not truth and mine is..

Mine is rubber and yours is glue...that's childish.

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.... given to defend the Church even in its egregious mistakes.

So you admit that killing, torturing, stealing and destruction are mistakes? Well, it's a start.

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Sounds like a competitor and a hater. This is obviously not true. The part of Junipero aggrandizing himself slips you back into lunacy.

You agree that Serra was competing, which would lead a rational person to think he was trying to win, or get ahead, or benefit somehow, but because I used the term "aggrandizing" < Aggrandize | Definition of Aggrandize by Merriam-Webster
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aggrandize
Merriam‑Webster
transitive verb. 1 : to make great or greater : increase, enlarge <aggrandize an estate> 2 : to make appear great or greater : praise highly. >In your opinion that "slips me back into lunacy"?

Maybe there is some kind of communication problem ,,,,or one of us is in deep denial?

Reputations often arrive before the person to a location. The indians knew Senna and the Spaniards armed with muskets were coming and they had a reputation for totaling altering villages and killing and spreading disease in every village they came to. Yes Padre, that is terrorism, and given the documented totals, the killing was on a global scale. <Terrorism | Definition of Terrorism by Merriam-Webster
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism
Merriam‑Webster
; the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal. : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion. ... They have been arrested for acts of terrorism.> Do you have different definitions that you are basing your version of reality with?

Quote: petroglyph

So you admit that killing, torturing, stealing and destruction are mistakes? Well, it's a start.

Of course I do! None of this is what Serra was doing. You can't call him a terrorist. He carried no weapon, defended the native people from the colonists, advocated for them to be treated fairly. Maybe he and other Europeans unknowingly carried disease but they weren't practicing germ warfare. Come on?