Simple question?

Simple question:

Even if Adam & Even hadn't eaten the apple, assuming they were allowed to procreate, just how long before one of their future offspring succumbed to temptation?

Original Sin sure seems like a setup and game for suckers to me, as long as God leaves the tree within reach.

Quote: Nareed

Do you know what logic and reason are for?

To discover the truth.

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Can you be sure of something you cannot prove or test?

Yes.

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If you can condemn something as nonsense and then say it's correct, I begin to see the root of your problem.

Some nonsense has bits of truth in it.

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How do you know?

Reason tells you if you cut a rock in half, the pieces will act exactly like the whole rock did if, say, you were to throw them up in the air. It also tells you if you cut the halves into half, they'll keep acting the same way. So 1) Is there an end to how many times you can cut the halves in half? and 2) Will they keep acting the same way?

1) Logic suggest that 1) No, and 2) Yes.

Observation and evidence say, not suggest, that 1) Yes and 2) No.

And I have a Planck Scale and Quantum Mechanics that says I'm right.

What have you got?

I have Reason, Logic, observation, evidence, and faith all working together.

Quote: rxwine

All you could say is (if the timeline of the Universe is represented by dominoes falling) that you can see a long line of dominoes, where you can't see what is happening beyond a certain point at either end. You can only guess.

Wrong. You don't have to guess that something knocked over the first on, you know this as true. The guessing or better the search for what knocked it over is a different question.

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If God is the prime mover, he has powers beyond the physics of the Universe.

Understated, but yes.

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But why is it not possible another unintelligent force exists beyond the physics of the Universe. Then you have neither god nor your hated infinite regression. Just another thing that is not yet discovered.

Let's be clear I don't hate an infinite regression, it is truth and reality that hate it, they hate it even more than a vacuum. We also are talking about something that cannot be simple discovered. What created our universe as you said is well beyond the physics of the Universe, it is outside or time and space and it is spiritual and all-powerful. You don't just trip over something like that or look in your telescope and see it. It could very well be an unintelligent force and then we would never know, if it is an intelligent being then we won't discover it unless it wants to be discovered and reveals itself to us.

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Perhaps it is something that only exists when the Universe is not around so it can never be measured.

This is what is called the Divine Watch-maker.

The problem with your world view is the basis of it is too weak for such certainty as you assert. Like I said, a force outside of our physics producing the Big Bang doesn't have to be intelligent at all. The normal understanding of physics may not explain it, but that doesn't mean it is a god either.

Aside from about the other 1001 things doubtful about your religion, I'd say you're on pretty shaky territory.

Quote: FrGamble

you are asking something that is so obvious

The only thing obvious around here
is your utter desperation to twist
anything you can to make it look
like there is some kind of god out
there. You can't show god to us,
you can't prove his existence, so
you cling to twisting science theory
to hopefully find god peeking at
us somewhere.

If A is B, and B can look like C, the
only conclusion is god did it! You
really need to get into a different
profession if you're so hung up on
proof. Religion is the last place
you'll find proof or truth.

Quote: rxwine

The problem with your world view is the basis of it is too weak for such certainty as you assert. Like I said, a force outside of our physics producing the Big Bang doesn't have to be intelligent at all. The normal understanding of physics may not explain it, but that doesn't mean it is a god either.

Aside from about the other 1001 things doubtful about your religion, I'd say you're on pretty shaky territory.

What is clear and certain is that there is something, we commonly refer to as God, that created the entire Universe. This God also created us, human beings, with unique abilities to think, to act freely, and to love. We are so much more than everything else around us, we are created in the image and likeness of this God and meant to seek Him. He has revealed Himself to us in the person of Jesus Christ. I wasn't always clear and certain on this, but like any relationship it grows and strengthens over time. Certainty builds as the accumulations of experiences, knowledge, and evidence add up. It is not any one thing that gives us the certainty we want in anything. All that you believe is built upon the accumulation of what would be a weak basis if that was all you had. It is no different with religious faith.

I also want to point out that I am nothing special. Lots and lots of people have this same religious faith that builds over time. It is not something unique or impossible for you or anyone to achieve. All we really need is a desire to enter into a relationship with God, perseverance, and a good community.

Believing strongly in a religion for your whole life is nothing exclusive to Christianity. Dying for religion is nothing special to Christianity either. It's been done for other non-Christian purposes.

AS proof, strong belief is worthless.

Quote: rxwine

AS proof, strong belief is worthless.

I tend to agree with you, but the only caveat being that often times our strong belief is based on something we can't always put into words. I know of many parishioners who maybe because of a lack of formal education or other factors couldn't answer your questions about the faith, nor give a talk on why they believe. This may make it look like it is just strong belief as their proof. However, many of them have had life experiences that ground their strong belief in ways so powerful we couldn't understand and they couldn't explain. I especially find this in veterans.

Quote: FrGamble

What is clear and certain is that there is something, we commonly refer to as God, that created the entire Universe. .

You really can't help it, you just repeat the
same ridiculous mantra over and over
and that makes it true. Are you even
capable of thinking outside of the cult
bubble you're brainwashed in? Like
Ed the ex priest said to me on Friday,
it's a waste of time talking to a priest,
and he should know. He's puzzled why
we spend so much time doing it.

Quote: FrGamble

However, many of them have had life experiences that ground their strong belief

So what. Once we believe something, anything,
we constantly look for the slightest evidence
our belief is true. Humans are very good at
selective reasoning and rejecting what doesn't
fit the template. Take a racial bigot, for instance.
He is always looking for proof that blacks are
inferior. And he finds them. A person looking
for proof blacks are the same as everybody else
will also find ample proof of it everywhere.

You want to believe in a god so you see him
all over the place. He's constantly affirming
himself to you, or so you think. He who seeks,
finds. The problem is, he who seeks finds what
he wants to find, whether it's real or not. That's
why science finally rose to prominence, we
got tired of all the superstition and pulled
ourselves out of the self delusion gutter.