Abraham Lincoln is in aggregate ranked as America's greatest president

Quote: stinkingliberal

As far as California's productivity since then, well, I venture to say that a Mexico-administered California would not have been as productive or prosperous as the actual version--by a factor of maybe ten.

But without California, Arizona, New Mexico and Nevada, Hollywood would have had to set up elsewhere. At the time, movies were shot in daylight (yes, that ended quickly, in sets open to the air. Southern California was chosen because it had good weather year-round and little rainfall.

That kind of good weather is not found elsewhere. But scarce rainfall is.

So absent the land-theft, the movies would have flocked to Texas (that was bound to break away on its own). And one of America's reddest states, would now be filled with the Pinko Liberal elites.

So there :)

Quote: Nareed

But without California, Arizona, New Mexico and Nevada, Hollywood would have had to set up elsewhere. At the time, movies were shot in daylight (yes, that ended quickly, in sets open to the air. Southern California was chosen because it had good weather year-round and little rainfall.

The movie industry made California famous, but it didn't make California rich (if for no other reason than movie profits usually wound up elsewhere). What made California rich was a) food and b) timing. California benefited from the nation's first systematic statewide public water project systems. Then lo and behold, the Dust Bowl, and suddenly, California is a magnet for migrant farmers AND is tasked with taking up the shortfall in the nation's food supply from all those failed farms. The weather certainly had a lot to do with it, but without water, you ain't got nuthin', and the federal government and private enterprise provided the resources and the impetus for the water projects to turn CA into a food paradise. And a century later, we have kiwi fruit and kale.

I still wouldn't call it land theft. It was more like a strongly encouraged purchase and sale. And to reiterate, by the standards of the 19th century, territory seized in war wasn't stolen; it was legitimately acquired.

Also, I think that if CA hadn't been ceded to the US, it (and maybe the other states involved) would have followed a pattern similar to Texas: lots of Yankee settlers/immigrants, both legal and illegal; a challenge to the ruling Mexican government; a short civil war. For the reasons I mentioned earlier, Mexico probably wouldn't even have tried to send an army up there. Also, if you assume the gold rush would still have happened either way, there would have been half a million Yankees in California whether it was still nominally a Mexican territory or not. Like Texas, it would have existed for a while as an independent republic, perhaps. Then it would have joined the US. You could draw a parallel with British Columbia, which was lukewarm about joining the rest of Canada until a transcontinental railroad was promised. And don't forget, an independent Bear Flag Republic would still have bordered the US--Oregon Territory. California was inevitably going to be US territory one way or the other.

I think that Texas's cowboy Nazism is more due to that rugged independent frontiersman bullshit than anything else, so add movies to the mix and you still would have had the same politics. Maybe we would have had some kind of cocktail made with gin and chili or something, but otherwise, Texas would still be the sinkhole that it is.

Quote: Pacomartin

32 Franklin D. Roosevelt Democratic

Bought the rural vote with Rural Free Delivery and Rural Electrification.
Desperately wanted the USA in the European War and desperately wanted something far more substantial than a far off gunboat incident to do it.
Enforced Neutrality Act in an arbitrary manner, thus openly allowing munitions to go to Canada and thence to the UK but not allowing munitions to Germany.
Knew that Japan needed scrap metal for its war in Manchuria and that Japan would attack if unable to pursue its war in Manchuria.
Knew that Harvard advisers and particularly Jewish advisers were efficiently lobbying for the banning of scrap metal.
Relieved an Admiral of command who objected to moving the fleet to Pearl Harbor as a 'provocative act against Japan'.
Kept the oldest Admiral in the Navy in command in Hawaii asleep by nine pm each night.
Kept information about the Bomb Plot from Hawaii (the Japanese diplomat known to have been ordered to report moorings according to imaginary graph lines).
Kept emphasizing the risk is from local saboteurs.
Ordered the Coast Guard to be integrated into the Navy so as to provide cutters for Atlantic convoy duty six hundred miles from the Coast.
Knew a frontal assault on "Fortress Europa" would be costly but refused to sign legislation for developing large mechanized-company carrying planes that would make his personal enemies rich.

And he makes the list of best presidents........ clearly a meaningless list.

Quote: Fleastiff

And he makes the list of best presidents........ clearly a meaningless list.

You do realize that this Roosevelt conspiracy theory stuff was old fifty years ago, don't you? And you do realize that the "Roosevelt caused Pearl Harbor/did nothing about Pearl Harbor even though he knew it was coming/personally captained one of the attacking Japanese carriers" conspiracy theory makes no sense--in that whatever evil, Machiavellian plan he had, it would have been much better served by making Pearl Harbor a smashing American victory?

And wow---I thought that Hitler's accusation that "the Jews" were manipulating the American government wasn't believed by anyone else...those sneaky Jews, trying to stop scrap metal from...I guess you meant, being shipped to Japan, though you seem to be saying they were lobbying against its existence.

Roosevelt had a lot to do with America's winning the war, which is why he's placed high on most lists. A LOT of Republicans have kept the Roosevelt Conspiracy flame lit because his New Deal policies are in direct conflict with their ideologies--and that those policies were effective is a direct slap in the face to Republican beliefs that all you have to do is let business run the country without any restraints and everything will be just fine.

Quote: stinkingliberal

You do realize that this Roosevelt conspiracy theory stuff was old fifty years ago, don't you?

The only question is the Truth, not the latest fads.

Yes, the shipment of scrap iron to Japan, not its mere existence. And if you read the Japanese comments you will see that this was indeed the 'trigger'. The Japanese diplomats were kept totally out of the loop as far as the desires for war. Anyone looking at the shipping traffic could see that all Japanese ships were marching across the Pacific and would be in the safety of the home waters by December 8th, the day of the attack. Japan had no intention of allowing its merchant vessels to be captured or interned in neutral ports and they were obvious about it.

Quote: Fleastiff

The only question is the Truth, not the latest fads.

Yes, the shipment of scrap iron to Japan, not its mere existence. And if you read the Japanese comments you will see that this was indeed the 'trigger'. The Japanese diplomats were kept totally out of the loop as far as the desires for war. Anyone looking at the shipping traffic could see that all Japanese ships were marching across the Pacific and would be in the safety of the home waters by December 8th, the day of the attack. Japan had no intention of allowing its merchant vessels to be captured or interned in neutral ports and they were obvious about it.

Is the Truth truthier when you Capitalize it?

When you say "anyone looking at the shipping traffic," etc. you seem to not know that communications and surveillance satellites wouldn't be invented for several more decades. There was no way for anyone to just look at the ocean and see what vessels were on it and where they were heading. We had a few submarines in the vastness of the Pacific. That's all.

The United States was not Japan's only source for raw materials, scrap steel included. The Japanese wanted a propaganda rationale for their seizure of Southeast Asia and its resources. The US embargo was used as a pretext. It wasn't a valid justification to go to war--but the Japanese had made up their minds long ago. It shows an appalling ignorance of history to that that any US actions "triggered" the Japanese attacks. If anything had done that, it was the success of Nazi Germany, England and Russia fighting for their lives, and the prospect of easy loot as a result of the power vacuum in the Far East.

Oh good grief, read a book about it will you. What do you think all those far flung consular officers were doing sending their dispatches why do you think all the newspapers printed Ship Arrival and Departure Columns. Java was supplying oil and the Japs calculated they would ship oil within two years of capturing the fields in the Dutch East Indies but they were in fact able to ship oil within 72 hours because no one fired the oil wells they only fired the storage tanks.

Quote: Fleastiff

Oh good grief, read a book about it will you. What do you think all those far flung consular officers were doing sending their dispatches why do you think all the newspapers printed Ship Arrival and Departure Columns. Java was supplying oil and the Japs calculated they would ship oil within two years of capturing the fields in the Dutch East Indies but they were in fact able to ship oil within 72 hours because no one fired the oil wells they only fired the storage tanks.

I've read hundreds of books on the subject actually--you should try it sometime.

OK, OK, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and entered the war not voluntarily, but rather, because they were being manipulated by that evil liberal, Roosevelt. Roosevelt even went scuba diving in Pearl Harbor a week before the attack and took notes so that the Japanese would know exactly where to aim their torpedoes. Roosevelt made the Japanese dance like puppets. He even made sure that houses on Oahu of people who had voted against him were bombed. He also shot the guy who was going to warn the commander at Clark Field in Manila of the oncoming attack. Roosevelt was also responsible for the Holocaust. And several earthquakes. And global warming.

Gee, this making shit up stuff is fun! I can see why you like it.

FDR was not responsible for global warming.

May I suggest you read the writings of Senator Nye and the various America First people who saw no need to get involved in a European War.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Guiding the country through war(s) gets you on the list, but I question the validity of aggregating polls that cover such a wide span of time since some potential candidates for "greatest" could not be compared.

That being said, I would vote for Lincoln. Polk on the list cracks me up, since I doubt even 1 in 10,000 random people would name him if asked to recall all the POTUS'.

The first such list, the 1948 poll was conducted by historian Arthur M. Schlesinger, Sr., of Harvard University, picked the top 6 as POTUSs during the great wars of our country's history.

16 Abraham Lincoln Republican Civil War
01 George Washington Independent War of Independence
32 Franklin D. Roosevelt Democratic WWII
28 Woodrow Wilson Democratic WWI
03 Thomas Jefferson Dem-Repub War of Independence
07 Andrew Jackson Democratic War of 1812: the Battle of New Orleans. First Seminole War