Is the future of EV charging bidirectional?

How is the connection from the car to the home/grid going to work? I don't see most people wanting to make a physical connection every night or time they aren't using their auto's. It's like thinking most people go around picking up trash that isn't theirs.

Unless the connection doesn't require any hands on, like an electric toothbrush. That's what I think it would take to make the US EV majority, being able to charge while driving on the E-way gaining a charge travelling on major roads.

Quote: rxwine

Sure. And you could have one car, and the wife could be somewhere leaving you without emergency access also.

You are either completely missing the point or else making a bunch of "what ifs" because you realize the reality is not what you think it is.

Quite simply, people get a car because they want to be able to go wherever they want whenever they want. I remember the gas shortage of 1979 and how there were times you could not go anywhere because you could not be assured of being able to buy gasoline. Let me tell you that was a very dark time. Having a car but you did not go anywhere because the gas in the tank might be needed for something important.

People are not going to live like that, not going to let the grid drain their batteries. Simple human nature.

Quote: AZDuffman

You are either completely missing the point or else making a bunch of "what ifs" because you realize the reality is not what you think it is.

Quite simply, people get a car because they want to be able to go wherever they want whenever they want. I remember the gas shortage of 1979 and how there were times you could not go anywhere because you could not be assured of being able to buy gasoline. Let me tell you that was a very dark time. Having a car but you did not go anywhere because the gas in the tank might be needed for something important.

People are not going to live like that, not going to let the grid drain their batteries. Simple human nature.

You were wrong as soon as you didn’t say people get cars for all different reasons.

Also, I don’t think my Dad even missed a day of work during 70s gas shortage. I believe we were getting gas even or odd days. We didn’t live in a big city, so there was hardly dark days. My dad lived through the Great Depression so your description was laughable.

Quote: rxwine

You were wrong as soon as you didn’t say people get cars for all different reasons.

Also, I don’t think my Dad even missed a day of work during 70s gas shortage. I believe we were getting gas even or odd days. We didn’t live in a big city, so there was hardly dark days. My dad lived through the Great Depression so your description was laughable.

I asked my sister, and golly we never starved one day in the 70s.

Quote: rxwine

You were wrong as soon as you didn’t say people get cars for all different reasons

Most people get a car to get from A to B and have only one personal car. The need that car to go at the moment they need is so are not going to let it discharge to "save the grid" or whatever. Then add in that when this power is needed in the grid is the same time most cars are in use, IOW, during the day.

That is the same thing these people pushing "mobility" miss. They think you will just hire a car when you need and it will work out since most care sit 90% of the day. But what they miss is everyone needs a car at the same time, which is why they call it "rush hour." Just another case of more education displacing common sense in people's heads.

Quote:

Also, I don’t think my Dad even missed a day of work during 70s gas shortage. I believe we were getting gas even or odd days. We didn’t live in a big city, so there was hardly dark days. My dad lived through the Great Depression so your description was laughable.

Most people used the car for just the important things. But you were very constricted. Some stations only opened a few hours a day. At first there were just long lines everywhere and you got $5 max, at about $0.80-0.95 a gallon. Prices were fixed and the tanks dried up in they typical shortage situation. Had they been allowed to raise the price to $1.25 a gallon the lines would not have been as bad, but people would cry about "price gouging." ODD/EVEN happened later along with a $5 minimum in my state. That lessened the lines.

But think about that. Can't buy gas until tomorrow. People hated it. Add in a 5-7 gallon max and we got to see what living under a communist society was like even if for only one product.

Face facts, people are not going to do it.

Quote: AZDuffman

Face facts, people are not going to do it.

Sure they will. I couldn't even think of a product we use where if there is some discount offered, some people won't take advantage of it. Take your example of rush hour. Look at all the retired people on a tight budget who might put off their shopping trip to later in the evening if there is some financial incentive to do so.
Their schedule modulates the system to drain some extra power in the afternoon if needed when they're not using their car. In the evening they do that errand or two.

Quote: rxwine

Sure they will. I couldn't even think of a product we use where if there is some discount offered, some people won't take advantage of it. Take your example of rush hour. Look at all the retired people on a tight budget who might put off their shopping trip to later in the evening if there is some financial incentive to do so.
Their schedule modulates the system to drain some extra power in the afternoon if needed when they're not using their car. In the evening they do that errand or two.

Back to critical reading skills. Of course a few people will try to save that $5 a month. But it is not going to be anywhere near what would be needed to avoid building many new power plants that the daytime discharging would save. Nobody (again read critically not literally) wants to go to their car and see the charge is gone when they need it.

The whole idea sounds like yet another idea from a bunch of Poindexters who spend their life in academia not reality.

You're showing neither Poindexter skills or real life skills. Energy doesn't need to be drained to next to nothing from a car for this to work. Also, you must be one of those people who never lets the car get near E. I couldn't even tell you how many times, I didn't bother to fill up the night before. And I've never run out of gas before I reached a station. I'm just too good I guess. Lesser men needn't to even try that. If I couldn't calculate my energy from a battery, I'd be worried like you, that it must be impossible for people to live like that.

And who says more power stations won't be built at intervals over a period of time. Varied energy sources will work collectively just like they do now.

Quote: AZDuffman

I do not see people draining their EVs back into the grid. Think about it, are you going to let your EV discharge and be empty when you need to use it?

I don't think that will be necessary empty your EV. I went through the calculation in the first post to show that the collective Terawatt Hours in 25-30 million batteries is more than California uses in a single day. The power companies are only going to require power in moments of extreme need, and would only need a relatively small percentage of daily use.

People volunteer to give the utilities the power to turn down their air conditioner in an emergency for money. Of course, they don't think that the emergency is usually a heat spell which is when they badly want their air conditioners

Quote: rxwine

Apparently during the Texas power outage some Tesla owners were using a $200 inverter to get power and heat. Of course, that can void the warranty if found out. It could also end up damaging the electrical system if you don't know what you're doing.

Originally when I thought about this problem I was thinking that the use would be dedicated to your home only (and not feeding the grid). The idea is that the cheapest Tesla vehicle has an MSRP from $39,990 with a 50-kWh battery. But Tesla will selll you a 14 kWh home battery for $6500. So four of these home batteries would cost 4 x $6500 = $26,000 after which you would have to pay for a bank of inverters to work in parallel, You are literally paying a small fortune to back up your house as it would be much cheaper to pay Lowe's hardware store $125 / Month for 24 months to buy a Generac Guardian WIFI Enabled 10000-Watt (Liquid Petroleum) / 9000-Watt (Natural Gas) Standby Generator with Automatic Transfer Switch (enough to run a refrigerator, microwave oven, electric stove and dishwasher as an example). But then you are burning fossil fuels, even if it is only for an emergency.

But then I realize the analysts were more concerned about public good than just backing up your house.

Quote: odiousgambit

My gut tells me there will be a few enthusiasts sending the charge back into the grid, of course, but the average person will want to have his car fully charged and ready to go.

It all depend on how much and how often. Someone may be more than willing to give up 20% of the 300 mile max range during the heat of the day for compensated help with an air conditioning crisis, if he can charge up that night.

Quote: odiousgambit

Which gets into the idea of the average person. From something I saw I get the idea people are likely going to typically retain a gas burner for longer trips even if they are OK with using EVs for daily use. In northern climes it'll be even more desirable to keep an ICE vehicle in addition to your EV. Meanwhile feeling great about how cool and hip they are for saving the planet, in their own minds. So upper middle class and higher will be happy with the arrangement but for the rest of the population, I dunno

Tesla Standard Range + Model 3 does 0-62mph:5.3 seconds with total range of 267 miles (all on battery)
Toyota RAV4 Prime does 0-60mph:5.7 seconds with total range of 600 miles (first 42 miles on battery) gas 2.6 gallons per 100 miles.


The 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime 4WD with a 2.5 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV-S6) MSRP: $38,100 - $41,425. People with money often prefer to spend ~$40K for a standard+ range Model 3 Tesla and spend another $40K+ to have the RAV4 Prime as their vehicle for long trips where they don't have to spend long periods of time recharing their Tesla.

Toyota maintains that plug in hybrid vehicles with a battery for normal daily use have no worse impact on the environment than battery only electric vehicles WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT of making the lithium batteries.

Toyota and Tesla will be working much closer in the upcoming years.

Quote: Pacomartin

People volunteer to give the utilities the power to turn down their air conditioner in an emergency for money. Of course, they don't think that the emergency is usually a heat spell which is when they badly want their air conditioners

You reminded me that Vegas was already doing something like that just before I moved. So I looked it up. It's voluntary, but you do save a small amount of money if you do it using one of the Smart meters.

Quote:

Here's how you save during a Community Energy Event:
Energy events occur between June and September and last about two hours.
Immediately before an event, your home is pre-cooled by a few degrees. Depending on how well it is insulated, your home should remain comfortable.
While the event is underway, your temperature set point will increase four degrees, but your home will not instantly become four degrees warmer. In fact you may not notice any temperature change at all.
At the end of the event, your thermostat returns to its target temperature and your original schedule.
You’ll see savings on your monthly bill.