limited models

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October 9th, 2021 at 5:46:55 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1032
Posts: 12100
It does seem strange that of the 6 Brands that Stellantis (14 brands worldwide) sell in the US, four of them have only two models apiece

CHRYSLER (founded 1925)
300
Pacifica

RAM BRAND (started as a model in 1980 as part of Chrysler)
Ram Pickup
Promaster Van

ALFA ROMEO (founded 1910)
Stelvio
Giulia

FIAT (founded 1899)
Fiat 500
Spider

Only Jeep (founded 1945) and Dodge (founded 1900) have more than two models associated with their brand.

There is nothing inherently wrong with having limited models. If you look at 3rd quarter 2021 sales you see that RAM is actually a larger operation by revenue than Subaru which has seven models.
142,375 Subaru for 7 models @ ~ $34,000 apiece
144,740 RAM for 2 models @ ~ $44,000 apiece

But some of the Stellantis brands are selling very small numbers of vehicles (3rd quarter 2021 sales)
49,059 DODGE BRAND
15,502 CHRYSLER BRAND
4,529 ALFA ROMEO
401 FIAT BRAND
69,491 total of four brands

Do you think that some of these brands, while admittedly very old, will fade into the sunset?
October 9th, 2021 at 6:52:12 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 133
Posts: 15604
Quote: Pacomartin
It does seem strange that of the 6 Brands that Stellantis (14 brands worldwide) sell in the US, four of them have only two models apiece

CHRYSLER (founded 1925)
300
Pacifica

RAM BRAND (started as a model in 1980 as part of Chrysler)
Ram Pickup
Promaster Van

ALFA ROMEO (founded 1910)
Stelvio
Giulia

FIAT (founded 1899)
Fiat 500
Spider

Only Jeep (founded 1945) and Dodge (founded 1900) have more than two models associated with their brand.

There is nothing inherently wrong with having limited models. If you look at 3rd quarter 2021 sales you see that RAM is actually a larger operation by revenue than Subaru which has seven models.
142,375 Subaru for 7 models @ ~ $34,000 apiece
144,740 RAM for 2 models @ ~ $44,000 apiece

But some of the Stellantis brands are selling very small numbers of vehicles (3rd quarter 2021 sales)
49,059 DODGE BRAND
15,502 CHRYSLER BRAND
4,529 ALFA ROMEO
401 FIAT BRAND
69,491 total of four brands

Do you think that some of these brands, while admittedly very old, will fade into the sunset?



First observation is some makes have too many models. Brock Yates observed in the early 70s maybe late 60s how the domestics kept adding models but sales did not increase. IOW, it was taking 8 models to do what 3 did years before. But times may have changed since then.

Chrysler is dead. There is zero equity left in the Chrysler brand name. Lee Iacocca saw to that when he just added more trim to the K cars and called them "Chrysler." Chrysler used to equal Buick with Imperial the top of the line. Eventually that was all over. Chrysler just became a companion to Plymouth, something nicer in the same showroom. Plymouth, of course, lost any value by the 1980s as the brand got abandoned and lost between more sporty Dodge and more plush Chrysler.

Ram is just a companion brand to Dodge and it makes a bit of sense. Ram existed pre-WWII then was resurrected to give the Dodge pickup a "tough" image. It worked. Like Cutlass at Olds it became a sub-brand but better than Cutlass as Ram was more intentional while "Cutlass" slapped on everything came off as a bunch of MBAs with marketing concentrations just extending a brand name as they were taught by people who could not cut it in industry. Ram should be a decent franchise for decades.

Fiat is dead in the USA just nobody bothered to tell Fiat. I saw their sales just the other day on Autoline. Dealers sell more cars that Fiat has as a company! You have to feel bad for those dealers who invested high six figures building out showrooms thinking they would be the next Mini. They sold a few to left-wing, young female college grads fast. Then sales dried up. Fix It Again Tony!

Alfa has snob appeal, I will never own one and cannot even identify one by model. Niche car, that is it.

Daimler effectively destroyed Chrysler as anything but a specialty maker. Minivans, trucks, and cars living off 60 year old designs being sold to guys in their 40s who liked those old Mopars. That can only last so long.
The President is a fink.
October 9th, 2021 at 9:22:36 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1032
Posts: 12100
Quote: AZDuffman
First observation is some makes have too many models. Brock Yates observed in the early 70s maybe late 60s how the domestics kept adding models but sales did not increase. IOW, it was taking 8 models to do what 3 did years before. But times may have changed since then.

I think for the most part brands have stopped introducing new models. Now they just introduce a new trim for an existing models. The days of offering a subcompact model, a compact model, a mid-size model, and a full size model are vanishing. Toyota just terminated both their subcompact Yaris model, and their full size Avalon model, and are just selling variations of Corolla's and Camry's. It's possible they will drop the Prius at some point in favor of the hybrid Corolla.

In sports cars they still sell the SUPRA which is about 80% BMW Z4, but this generation will be the last. As a low cost sports car the GR 86 whose engine was designed by Subaru and sold as the Subaru BRZ.
Toyota has a lot of their future riding on the fuel cell car, the Mirai. The EVs will probably all be SUVs.

Electric cars are very poor sellers for the most part. Design wise the battery packs are not very suitable for sedans, and they are too pricy. The Tesla 3 is vanishing in favor of the Tesla Y, and the Nissan LEAF will be overshadowed by the Nissan Ariya. 2022 Chevrolet Bolt is a Compact sport utility vehicle. The Electric Mini as a city car seems like it is here to stay.

Quote: AZDuffman
Chrysler is dead. There is zero equity left in the Chrysler brand name. Lee Iacocca saw to that when he just added more trim to the K cars and called them "Chrysler." Chrysler used to equal Buick with Imperial the top of the line. Eventually that was all over. Chrysler just became a companion to Plymouth, something nicer in the same showroom. Plymouth, of course, lost any value by the 1980s as the brand got abandoned and lost between more sporty Dodge and more plush Chrysler.


Chrysler may become a marquee for the three French brands owned by Stellantis: Citroën, DS, Peugeot,
October 9th, 2021 at 9:40:30 AM permalink
missedhervee
Member since: Apr 23, 2021
Threads: 22
Posts: 853
Like em or not, cars are on the outs, and SUV's are replacing them as the "go to" form of transportation.

Ford spotted this trend and to adjust they killed off most of their car lines (except for Mustang, IIRC) and focus solely on pickups and SUV's and vans.

All of the vehicles currently peddled by the Stellantis group are unreliable money pits, be they Italian or domestic in mfr.

Now that Peugeot owns half of Stellantis I wonder whether they, like Fiat, will once again try to sell their cars in the USA?
October 9th, 2021 at 10:54:29 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 142
Posts: 23788
Quote: missedhervee
Like em or not, cars are on the outs, and SUV's are replacing them as the "go to" form of transportation.
?


At my local supermarket 95% of the vehicles in the lot are SUVs with a few pickup trucks thrown in. Very few actual sedans. But it's very upscale in my Township. I know in the apartment complex where my wife lives it's about 50-50.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 9th, 2021 at 11:10:13 AM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 11
Posts: 2891
Quote: missedhervee


All of the vehicles currently peddled by the Stellantis group are unreliable money pits, be they Italian or domestic in mfr.

Now that Peugeot owns half of Stellantis I wonder whether they, like Fiat, will once again try to sell their cars in the USA?


I have a Chrysler Pacifica with 300K km and a Dodge van with 200K km both of them 15 years old. Both have been very reliable and we have real winters here. Occasionally -40 and often snowy roads. The van is for work and I am often going to a job which is 150 miles return on country roads which may not be paved. It has cost me nothing but fuel, tires and a brake job. Never had a road side repair. I usually push it pretty hard at 130 - 140 km/hr on pavement.

Before these vehicles I drove Jeep Grande Cherokee's for twenty years with no problem. Upgraded every 5 years.

Bottom line I totally disagree with your statement on reliability.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
October 9th, 2021 at 11:16:32 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 142
Posts: 23788
Quote: kenarman
I have a Chrysler Pacifica with 300K km and a Dodge van with 200K km both of them 15 years old. Both have been very reliable


That is because they are pre-2011. That was the year Chrysler decided to compete with Toyota and Honda for the minivan market so they took the Dodge Caravan and started using more plastic and cheaper parts but charging the same amount of money. It was downhill from there. It got so bad into the teens that Chrysler stoped making the Caravan in 2020. They are rolling junk piles. In the nineties and two thousands the Dodge Caravan was the minivan you wanted. My brother has a 2000 with over 200k he drives it everyday.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 9th, 2021 at 11:44:37 AM permalink
missedhervee
Member since: Apr 23, 2021
Threads: 22
Posts: 853
Quote: kenarman
Bottom line I totally disagree with your statement on reliability.


My folks had a new '68 Chrysler Newport that was a real horror show: gutless, cheap materials, unreliable, broke down on the roadside.

I am a competent mechanic and have read several automotive magazines for decades, and based on my experience and what I've read of others' informed opinions I then formed my own opinion.

I don't care if you disagree with me, but do you disagree with the findings of JD Power? see...

October 9th, 2021 at 11:45:40 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 133
Posts: 15604
Quote: Pacomartin
I think for the most part brands have stopped introducing new models. Now they just introduce a new trim for an existing models. The days of offering a subcompact model, a compact model, a mid-size model, and a full size model are vanishing. Toyota just terminated both their subcompact Yaris model, and their full size Avalon model, and are just selling variations of Corolla's and Camry's. It's possible they will drop the Prius at some point in favor of the hybrid Corolla.


In the old days you had a small, medium, and large. The lower end had more versions as it sold better.

1963 Ford had the following Falcon versions:

2 door sedan
2 door hardtop
Convertible
4 door
Wagon
Van

In the early 80s they had the Escort versions:

3 door
5 door
Wagon
2 Seat EXp

And they made the Tempo on the same platform but stretched.


Now what do you have on a low end car? Probably a 5 door, that is mostly it. If there is an entry car left at all.

What has happened is that people who used to buy low end strippers now either lease a nicer car or buy a nicer car coming off 3 year lease. The few people who want new and basic buy Civics, not much else choice. Even the small Civic is now what was once almost mid size.

Now, compare all those versions to what can you do with a SUV? 4-door SUV, that is what you get. They are great for utility, if you still care about style you have nowhere to go. Styling stopped being a thing by the 80s though.

I can see the day when gas goes up and the SUV is so the old mans car that hot hatches make a bit of a comeback.
The President is a fink.
October 9th, 2021 at 12:04:13 PM permalink
missedhervee
Member since: Apr 23, 2021
Threads: 22
Posts: 853
Quote: AZDuffman
The few people who want new and basic buy Civics, not much else choice.


A new, stripper 2021 Chevrolet Spark costs $14,395. The Chevrolet Spark is the cheapest new car you can buy.

Not that you should ... but you could ...
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