Should Trans People be allowed to use opposite sex bathrooms?

Quote: Mission146

Being vegan, in theory, might do that...but it would do it much faster if vegans weren't so self-righteous and insufferable. I'll grant that you're one of the better ones, but some of these posts are mildly annoying. You're willing to disregard the fundamental concept of market stability, for one thing. I know you would normally know better than that.

Besides that, I really might offset you. I'm actually thinking about it. Unfortunately, my current meal plan has been kicking @$$ when it comes to weight loss. I guess I could eat more chicken, eggs and fish. There's really no great reason that I should be avoiding eggs. I mainly just cut out eggs when the prices went up, though I didn't replace them with anything, and now the prices are back down.

Do you know that they keep the chickens stacked in small cages that they barely fit in stacked one on top of the other where they're always defecating upon the ones below and living in misery and filth? That's the major farms, anyway. Some advertise themselves as, "Cage-Free," or, "Free Range," but the living standards aren't always better.

It's probably just as well to buy from a farm that you have seen with your own eyes. A farm that will have Government support in the event that it is struck by a natural disaster.

I'll think about these things when I go to the store and buy the cheapest available eggs.

I'm just messing around about that.

Honestly, if instead of cutting subsidies, you wanted to put laws into place that would mandate better treatment of animals...which would also have the side effect of driving the prices up (as better treatment would be more expensive), then I would be on board with that. I'm legitimately opposed to getting rid of Government food storages or Government buying excess foodstuffs to ensure that the producers will always make sure there is enough.

I still don't think animals matter. I really shouldn't care about the mistreatment, even the more egregious mistreatment, but I am weak in this way. I honestly only eat meat if I know where it comes from and, typically, eggs if I have actually seen the farm and think the chickens are being treated humanely enough.

Unfortunately, the animals do feel something. I can't get behind chickens having their beaks needlessly trimmed or being kept in horrible conditions. I can eat a chicken, and think nothing of it, if I think it lived a decent life and was killed humanely.

I also can't get behind the male chickens being put into garbage bags and being beaten with baseball bats. These are the people who oppose abortion? Okay. I guess consistency isn't important to them.

But, they don't matter. Just because I don't have the stomach to enable it doesn't mean that I think it matters. They're barely sentient.

Anyway, if vegans/vegetarians wanted to lobby for a change in the way animals are treated, I'm totally on board. If they want to kill farming subsidies to effectuate a change in market preferences, then I'm not. If you want to kill money specifically earmarked for meat/dairy subsidies, OTHER THAN, money devoted to stockpiling food storages, then I'm fine with that.

Quote: Gandler

I am fortunate to have a (humane) source of eggs, so I have not had to buy any in some years (not a huge fan of eggs, usually use them only as baking or to make something).

The ethical problem is saying less sentience matters is because you are accepting a level of sentience. And, there are humans with lower sentience and intelligence than virtually all animals (everyone in a coma, certain degrees of disability etc....)

I am not a vegan. Though I am an advocate of vegan principles. I don't agree, it may be who I associate with (again most vegans -who live as vegans- I know are libertarian or otherwise conservative so they may different in their advocacy), but most vegans I know are very live and let live and will not care what you are eating in front of them. They just live their life.

I think animals have rights. And, so do most people (but they end those rights to animals that they find cute). Your chicken point is a good one, because when that puppy blender video was made people were furious and demanding action against the video poster (rightly so in my view), but they were totally uninterested on how this happens on a daily basis to chickens. People just don't want to think about what happens at factory farms. But, yeah you are correct that such operations attract people with sadistic tendencies.

Your proposal is reasonable, though I find it ironic that you (as a libertarian) would prefer to keep subsidies and add regulations than the inverse (I am not saying this as an insult, I just find it ironic).

Quote: Mission146

Good deal on the eggs. It just so happens that my current diet generally does not call for anything with eggs as an ingredient, so I don't have to worry about it other than when directly eating eggs.

I would also say that those humans really don't matter, but they are afforded certain legal protections.

I grant that it depends on the vegan. As with anything, the loudest, most annoying, self-righteous or those deliberately seeking attention seem to dominate social media and are, most likely, not reflective of the average vegan.

Unfortunately, when the most outspoken are also the most self-righteous and insufferable, they do nothing to compel people to the lifestyle.

An example of the principle is how Trump found his way into the Oval Office. Basically, you don't get people to your side by painting the other side as objectively evil (meaning your rank-and-file meat eaters) for contemplating what they are contemplating. These people would have better success if they simply highlighted what benefits there are to their lifestyle while otherwise maintaining a live and let live attitude.

I don't think animals have rights, per se, but that doesn't mean that I would advocate deliberately causing pain to something that can experience pain in the name of low prices. Go get confronted with a tiger and try to explain human rights to it. We're on top of the food chain. Other than what we stop ourselves from doing, by choice, we can do whatever the hell we want to lesser animals and there is nothing they can do to prevent it. I just don't like causing something pain in the name of saving money; that doesn't mean I think they have a right to not have pain caused to them.

The nice thing about being a Libertarian is that you're not required to have ideological purity and be purely company line on every single specific issue. In terms of commonly discussed issues, we're roughly 30% pro-life, for example. Mostly religious grounds, for those who are, of course. You can be pro-life, or pro-choice and still be a Libertarian.

Quote: Gandler

I mean you can make that argument on literally any issues. The most obnoxious people always get the most attention. For some reason it seems to be veganism where people lump everyone in as obnoxious and crazy. My guess is you interact with several vegans a day and don't even know it (and probably won't unless you happen to eat together).

I mean Trump is objectively a bad person by any traditional defintion (liar, conman, no morals, sexually deviant, etc....) I don't know if I would say evil, but objectively immoral. I don't think pointing out the negative aspects of a person or issue is an inherently bad argument (especially if they want the ultimate position of power).

The idea of being able to do whatever we want to lesser animals is a dangerous road. What if some extremely high level creatures colonized earth (not completely impossible), would they be able to do anything to us? It's the classic treat those who are less fortunate how you would want to be treated in that position.

Quote: Mission146

Honestly, I wouldn't notice it even if I ate with them. I do not entertain guests for any reason, unless it cannot be avoided. I could count on one hand the number of people, other than my fiancee and kids, with whom I have dined in the last five years.

Even then, if I ate out with a vegan, I would pay no mind to what they ordered. How could what they order possibly matter to me? Anytime I eat out with someone I don't know particularly well, I always ask them to choose the restaurant. If they simply choose, then that will be where we go. If they choose AND tell me they are choosing that one because of vegan options, then I will refuse to go with them to the restaurant, or anywhere else.

I was referring to the, "Basket of deplorables," thing. More generally, the people who would paint all who even considered voting for Trump in a bad light. The more self-righteous vegans are basically the same thing; they try to convince you to do, or not do, something based on how evil you are if you take any other than their chosen actions. That doesn't work with a lot of people; go ask religion how well that works.

The problem is that many people have a desire to be seen as the most moral, or virtuous, and they attribute a hyper inflated virtuousness to their own doings. Many of these people have super-inflated egos and fail to adequately appraise themselves or attribute at least equal value to their many failings. They often also refuse to accept that what they see as virtuous, someone else might see as neutral, inconsequential or even negative.

More flies with honey, and all. In terms of lifestyle choices, one would have better luck getting people to their side by convincing them that what they are doing is for the better---not that what the one to be convinced is doing is wrong, immoral or evil.

It depends on the high-level creatures in question. When it comes to the animals, my starting point is that the animals are powerless to do anything about it and what we do to them, as well as how we treat them, is going to be according to our individual, or collective, preferences. I would suggest that it's the same thing with the aliens; if we are powerless to stop these hypothetical aliens, then the only thing stopping them from mistreating us will be themselves and we will have no choice but to be subject to whatever conditions they will allow for us.

Quote: ams288

Would you eat a human if it was prepared well?

(Not equating humans to cats and dogs, just curious!)

Quote: DRich

I think I would if I required nutrition and other meat was not available.

Quote:

Among modern humans, cannibalism has been practiced by various groups.[28] It was practiced by humans in Prehistoric Europe,[50][51] Mesoamerica,[52] South America,[53] among Iroquoian peoples in North America,[54] Maori in New Zealand,[55] the Solomon Islands,[56] parts of West Africa[18] and Central Africa,[18] some of the islands of Polynesia,[18] New Guinea,[57] Sumatra,[18] and Fiji.[58] Evidence of cannibalism has been found in ruins associated with the Ancestral Puebloans of the Southwestern United States as well (at Cowboy Wash in Colorado).[59][60][61]

Quote: rxwine

It's been popular.

Always gets a lot more popular when people are starving to death.

Quote:

Among modern humans, cannibalism has been practiced by various groups.[28] It was practiced by humans in Prehistoric Europe,[50][51] Mesoamerica,[52] South America,[53] among Iroquoian peoples in North America,[54] Maori in New Zealand,[55] the Solomon Islands,[56] parts of West Africa[18] and Central Africa,[18] some of the islands of Polynesia,[18] New Guinea,[57] Sumatra,[18] and Fiji.[58] Evidence of cannibalism has been found in ruins associated with the Ancestral Puebloans of the Southwestern United States as well (at Cowboy Wash in Colorado).[59][60][61]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_cannibalism