Should Trans People be allowed to use opposite sex bathrooms?

Quote: Mission146

I honestly don't know why 'journalists' would be reporting on an injury sustained in a high school athletic event on a website that we'd presume report relevant national information in the first place.

somebody put these stories together.

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Anyway, I'm simply stating facts, because facts are things that I do care about.

facts about the legality. Other facts are little known by either of us.

[below is snipped]

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As to the question that the legal decision was made by people not, 'giving a thought' to the prospect of boys participating on girls' teams: http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/378/378mass342.html

You've done an excellent job of finding that. I am flabbergasted. I can't argue anymore that the law was for girls to be able to play on male sports teams. I could theorize about it, but better just shut up. Congratulations, really. All I can tell you is what I wrote about things being so different then is on the money, take it to the bank.

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Therefore, I have no choice but to strenuously disagree with your obviously blind, ill-informed,

turns out, yes

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... illogical and nonsensical position

not convinced on that

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... that, "There wasn't a single person who voted for or against that law who gave a thought to the idea that boys would be playing on the girl's team..."

Have to admit I'm wrong but I can hardly believe it. Things have always been different in Massachusetts

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I really don't want to bury you. We're friends. I honestly hate doing this. Why would you make me do this to you? I tried to let you off easily. Did you really believe that I made the comments that I did without having read the actual decision knowing that it would be available?

You've taken me by complete surprise. For one thing the legality of the dude playing was laid out for us already and I accepted it completely, never doubted for a second he was within his rights. Wasn't the issue to me, so why look it up? Well, you hit the jackpot.

don't worry about hard feelings, if I need to be corrected then the result is I learned something. I respect a reasoned response as opposed to "move along, nothing to see here". Or the worst is proving your point and have someone dismiss that, which happens here. How would you feel if I read what you just wrote and then said, "nope, the law was made without being about boys playing on girl's teams". That denial happens here with the Lefties, some of them.

I do feel this story belongs in a Trans thread as boys on girls teams is a related issue. No, Ams, I don't regret posting it.

Quote: Mission146

OdiousGambit,

I want to talk to you about maybe concerning yourself less with the transgender issue. I believe this is an issue that, for one reason or another, is very personal to you; I have no idea why that might be.

However, you approach most subjects in a way that is very objective and consistently well-informed. I believe that whatever it is causing you to take this issue so personally is clouding your normally reasoned approach to questions.

Obviously, this is not a request in my capacity as an Administrator. You can post whatever you want. I'm only suggesting this as being for your own benefit simply because you really don't seem yourself on this particular issue and I worry that you let this particular issue bother you more than necessary.

Maybe just take a break and come back to it. I'm worried that you're letting this issue consume you to a certain extent. If you take a break and come back to it, then I think that you will make better informed arguments in support of your position.

As you know, I am opposed to male-to-female trans athletes being forced upon girls in amateur sports, as well. However, I recognized that, in the State of Massachusetts, it actually wouldn't matter as it could be a boy who identifies as a boy. For that reason, the question of whether or not it was a trans individual is strictly irrelevant.

ADDED: Also, Newsweek seems to have removed that article. Either that, or it has a different link. EDIT: The old link works again.

4 thoughts

yes, take a break

clicking on a link that is in the quote box often does not open right, go to the original

normalcy in Trans issues is about the nature of such people, can be about their rights, but much of it is getting out of hand, as this last story would show IF the dude turns out to be Trans-to-woman.

next comments, start a new link to be rid of the bathroom bit in the title

Quote: odiousgambit

You seem to be taking a legal-eagle view of this, which I care little about. Yes your facts are correct, but also exactly what the journalists are being told who are reporting on it in order to try to control the reporting. You know what my wager is.

The law being older than you? this is obvious. Trust me, there wasn't a single person who voted for or against that law who gave a thought to the idea that boys would be playing on the girl's team, except maybe somebody joked about it ... then everybody had a good laugh. Yes, things were that different then, it was inconceivable back then that a male would ever want to do such a thing. Males who were more female than male by nature did not want to do so, probably had even less interest than any other male. Weren't there some males who thought, heh, that would be fun [or 'hey I could beat everybody']? No. None of this crossed anybody's mind. This law was for females who could compete to some degree in what they knew was top competition, not sub-standard sports set aside for them, so they could do so. Little league was an example, prior to the law girls were not allowed to play in many/most places.

Have you seen field hockey being played? Something is really up with a guy who wants to do that... well, I have to take it back if the various teams are full of guys playing and he's just one of them. But I really, really doubt it.

I live in Massachusetts, am older than the law Mission cited, and can categorically state that HS boys have, on occasion, played on HS girls field hockey teams from time to time, when the school has no boys team. Nobody's really grumbled, as there are only a handful of cases, and it has not shown to impact the competitive balance at all.

As for the homophobic and sexist quips about the masculinity of boys or men who want to play field hockey, or whether something is up with those men, I note for the record that men's field hockey is popular around the world, moreso than in the US.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: odiousgambit

You seem to be taking a legal-eagle view of this, which I care little about. Yes your facts are correct, but also exactly what the journalists are being told who are reporting on it in order to try to control the reporting. You know what my wager is.

The law being older than you? this is obvious. Trust me, there wasn't a single person who voted for or against that law who gave a thought to the idea that boys would be playing on the girl's team, except maybe somebody joked about it ... then everybody had a good laugh. Yes, things were that different then, it was inconceivable back then that a male would ever want to do such a thing. Males who were more female than male by nature did not want to do so, probably had even less interest than any other male. Weren't there some males who thought, heh, that would be fun [or 'hey I could beat everybody']? No. None of this crossed anybody's mind. This law was for females who could compete to some degree in what they knew was top competition, not sub-standard sports set aside for them, so they could do so. Little league was an example, prior to the law girls were not allowed to play in many/most places.

Have you seen field hockey being played? Something is really up with a guy who wants to do that... well, I have to take it back if the various teams are full of guys playing and he's just one of them. But I really, really doubt it.

I live in Massachusetts, am older than the law Mission cited, and can categorically state that HS boys have, on occasion, played on HS girls field hockey teams from time to time, when the school has no boys team. Nobody's really grumbled, as there are only a handful of cases, and it has not shown to impact the competitive balance at all.

As for the homophobic and sexist quips about the masculinity of boys or men who want to play field hockey, or whether something is up with those men, I note for the record that men's field hockey is popular around the world, moreso than in the US.

100% was similar when I was growing up in NJ for sports that did not have a gender team available. There were girls on the football team (not many really only a periodic 1 or 2, most of the time just 1 who was steadily on it), and there was at least one guy who was on the field hockey team briefly. It is was (even back then) some title 9 thing I believe (where if there was not an equivalent gendered team for the sport a student wanted to play they have to let them join the team of whatever is available even if it was traditionally all girls or all guys.) It probably happened with other sports as well, but since field hockey and football are more physical (and traditionally gendered) I think they got the most controversy whenever a student tries it so that is what I recall.

So yes, you guys saying this would have happened regardless of the phase they were in their transition is accurate (even if it was just a regular guy he could have joined). Also, it sounds like the student who suffered an injury would have had a pretty nasty injury regardless of the gender of the student swinging the stick.... So even if you cut out all biological males (which has historically never been the case), it is not relevant, it would be a nasty injury.

Nobody would be alarmed by this story, if it was a regular HS guy who insisted on joining the FH team (as happens regularly in many States.) Everyone here would just say it is his right to play HS with girls since there are no gendered FH team. The only reason people care is because one party happened to be trans. I have not seen a single person here saying men should be barred from FH teams or women should be barred from Football teams, so they cannot even pretend to care about the hypnotical increased injury rate argument. I would be willing to bet in most States historically (and currently) more cis guys play FH than trans, and yet everyone in this thread (I can virtually guarantee) supports this..... So this whole outrage over this incident is silly for endless reasons.

Edit: I realized post-posting I used the term "regular guy" a few times meaning cis biological male. Did not mean for this to be derogatory, just casual phrasing, sorry! I don't really believe in post-edits, so here is my asterisks to explain my poor phrasing.

Quote: Gandler

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: odiousgambit

You seem to be taking a legal-eagle view of this, which I care little about. Yes your facts are correct, but also exactly what the journalists are being told who are reporting on it in order to try to control the reporting. You know what my wager is.

The law being older than you? this is obvious. Trust me, there wasn't a single person who voted for or against that law who gave a thought to the idea that boys would be playing on the girl's team, except maybe somebody joked about it ... then everybody had a good laugh. Yes, things were that different then, it was inconceivable back then that a male would ever want to do such a thing. Males who were more female than male by nature did not want to do so, probably had even less interest than any other male. Weren't there some males who thought, heh, that would be fun [or 'hey I could beat everybody']? No. None of this crossed anybody's mind. This law was for females who could compete to some degree in what they knew was top competition, not sub-standard sports set aside for them, so they could do so. Little league was an example, prior to the law girls were not allowed to play in many/most places.

Have you seen field hockey being played? Something is really up with a guy who wants to do that... well, I have to take it back if the various teams are full of guys playing and he's just one of them. But I really, really doubt it.

I live in Massachusetts, am older than the law Mission cited, and can categorically state that HS boys have, on occasion, played on HS girls field hockey teams from time to time, when the school has no boys team. Nobody's really grumbled, as there are only a handful of cases, and it has not shown to impact the competitive balance at all.

As for the homophobic and sexist quips about the masculinity of boys or men who want to play field hockey, or whether something is up with those men, I note for the record that men's field hockey is popular around the world, moreso than in the US.

100% was similar when I was growing up in NJ for sports that did not have a gender team available. There were girls on the football team (not many really only a periodic 1 or 2, most of the time just 1 who was steadily on it), and there was at least one guy who was on the field hockey team briefly. It is was (even back then) some title 9 thing I believe (where if there was not an equivalent gendered team for the sport a student wanted to play they have to let them join the team of whatever is available even if it was traditionally all girls or all guys.) It probably happened with other sports as well, but since field hockey and football are more physical (and traditionally gendered) I think they got the most controversy whenever a student tries it so that is what I recall.

So yes, you guys saying this would have happened regardless of the phase they were in their transition is accurate (even if it was just a regular guy he could have joined). Also, it sounds like the student who suffered an injury would have had a pretty nasty injury regardless of the gender of the student swinging the stick.... So even if you cut out all biological males (which has historically never been the case), it is not relevant, it would be a nasty injury.

Nobody would be alarmed by this story, if it was a regular HS guy who insisted on joining the FH team (as happens regularly in many States.) Everyone here would just say it is his right to play HS with girls since there are no gendered FH team. The only reason people care is because one party happened to be trans. I have not seen a single person here saying men should be barred from FH teams or women should be barred from Football teams, so they cannot even pretend to care about the hypnotical increased injury rate argument. I would be willing to bet in most States historically (and currently) more cis guys play FH than trans, and yet everyone in this thread (I can virtually guarantee) supports this..... So this whole outrage over this incident is silly for endless reasons.

Edit: I realized post-posting I used the term "regular guy" a few times meaning cis biological male. Did not mean for this to be derogatory, just casual phrasing, sorry! I don't really believe in post-edits, so here is my asterisks to explain my poor phrasing.

The male player in question was not trans,

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Gandler

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: odiousgambit

You seem to be taking a legal-eagle view of this, which I care little about. Yes your facts are correct, but also exactly what the journalists are being told who are reporting on it in order to try to control the reporting. You know what my wager is.

The law being older than you? this is obvious. Trust me, there wasn't a single person who voted for or against that law who gave a thought to the idea that boys would be playing on the girl's team, except maybe somebody joked about it ... then everybody had a good laugh. Yes, things were that different then, it was inconceivable back then that a male would ever want to do such a thing. Males who were more female than male by nature did not want to do so, probably had even less interest than any other male. Weren't there some males who thought, heh, that would be fun [or 'hey I could beat everybody']? No. None of this crossed anybody's mind. This law was for females who could compete to some degree in what they knew was top competition, not sub-standard sports set aside for them, so they could do so. Little league was an example, prior to the law girls were not allowed to play in many/most places.

Have you seen field hockey being played? Something is really up with a guy who wants to do that... well, I have to take it back if the various teams are full of guys playing and he's just one of them. But I really, really doubt it.

I live in Massachusetts, am older than the law Mission cited, and can categorically state that HS boys have, on occasion, played on HS girls field hockey teams from time to time, when the school has no boys team. Nobody's really grumbled, as there are only a handful of cases, and it has not shown to impact the competitive balance at all.

As for the homophobic and sexist quips about the masculinity of boys or men who want to play field hockey, or whether something is up with those men, I note for the record that men's field hockey is popular around the world, moreso than in the US.

100% was similar when I was growing up in NJ for sports that did not have a gender team available. There were girls on the football team (not many really only a periodic 1 or 2, most of the time just 1 who was steadily on it), and there was at least one guy who was on the field hockey team briefly. It is was (even back then) some title 9 thing I believe (where if there was not an equivalent gendered team for the sport a student wanted to play they have to let them join the team of whatever is available even if it was traditionally all girls or all guys.) It probably happened with other sports as well, but since field hockey and football are more physical (and traditionally gendered) I think they got the most controversy whenever a student tries it so that is what I recall.

So yes, you guys saying this would have happened regardless of the phase they were in their transition is accurate (even if it was just a regular guy he could have joined). Also, it sounds like the student who suffered an injury would have had a pretty nasty injury regardless of the gender of the student swinging the stick.... So even if you cut out all biological males (which has historically never been the case), it is not relevant, it would be a nasty injury.

Nobody would be alarmed by this story, if it was a regular HS guy who insisted on joining the FH team (as happens regularly in many States.) Everyone here would just say it is his right to play HS with girls since there are no gendered FH team. The only reason people care is because one party happened to be trans. I have not seen a single person here saying men should be barred from FH teams or women should be barred from Football teams, so they cannot even pretend to care about the hypnotical increased injury rate argument. I would be willing to bet in most States historically (and currently) more cis guys play FH than trans, and yet everyone in this thread (I can virtually guarantee) supports this..... So this whole outrage over this incident is silly for endless reasons.

Edit: I realized post-posting I used the term "regular guy" a few times meaning cis biological male. Did not mean for this to be derogatory, just casual phrasing, sorry! I don't really believe in post-edits, so here is my asterisks to explain my poor phrasing.

The male player in question was not trans,

Oh my goodness, if this is true what morons the right are for being outraged over this. If this is truly just another cis male playing FH lol.... And, not a trans? I guess I misread I thought the article said a trans (unless the writer was equally moronic and does not understand HS FH breakdowns, and assumed a male on the FH team was "trans".....)

This has been happening for years (long before people talked about trans issues.) This is a standard policy probably in most States due to Title 9 requirements. I thought the article mentioned that this was a trans player (which would be irrelevant in a league that is not gendering anyway.....)

Again as several of us have said most FH teams are mostly women most of the time historically. But, males are allowed to join (and have been for years.) Nobody seems to be concerned by this unless somebody gets accused of being trans....

I tend to believe Geno is correct as multiple local news outlets reporting on the injury referred to him as either ‘Boy’ or, ‘Male.’

I can’t guarantee that, however, as they may have been deliberately misreporting or might have been mistaken. News today is honestly irrelevant. There might have been no such injury and there may exist no two such named high schools. In any case, I am basing my statement on what the local news sources claim.

I’ve already stated that in one of my first posts on this subject.

Anyway, it could be relevant if we were having a locker room discussion, but this is an injury discussion. Therefore, it’s not a relevant distinction whether it’s a boy, transexual or even a girl, because literally anyone in the high school could play field hockey for this team.

Quote: Mission146

I tend to believe Geno is correct as multiple local news outlets reporting on the injury referred to him as either ‘Boy’ or, ‘Male.’

I can’t guarantee that, however, as they may have been deliberately misreporting or might have been mistaken. News today is honestly irrelevant. There might have been no such injury and there may exist no two such named high schools. In any case, I am basing my statement on what the local news sources claim.

I’ve already stated that in one of my first posts on this subject.

Anyway, it could be relevant if we were having a locker room discussion, but this is an injury discussion. Therefore, it’s not a relevant distinction whether it’s a boy, transexual or even a girl, because literally anyone in the high school could play field hockey for this team.

In my experience people use the locker room they identified with even when I was in. For example at my school one of the "controversies," was how for every game now they also needed open a male locker room, and the costs, etc..... Of course, nobody actually cared about this (and the cost of opening a second locker room during a massive game was nothing anyway all things considered compared to the planned costs), and they were just trying to find reasons it should not be allowed.

For example, if this truly was just a male playing FH (as has happened for years) there is a 100% chance they were in the male locker room (even if they were alone.) The more I read you guys I tend to believe it was very possible this is a run of the mill male FH player and the right wing idiots are just rolling with the trans nonsense.

It's almost like people only care about certain issues when it comes to trans (allegedly) being involved. Like that sexual assault case from a few weeks ago that was bathroom related (but was a male student though people claimed trans for a while.) I guess it is good that they care about sexual assault sometimes even if just in passing, but really it is just an excuse to bash trans. And, once info comes out that they are not trans, this many pages of outrage will cease. Nobody will start saying that this is a sign that FH safety equipment needs to be reformulated or stuff that would actually prevent injuries.....

Everyone who has been in HS in the last 20 years knows that boys can play in the FH team in every state (and for whatever reason gendered FH teams are extremely rare so this means gender diverse teams.) Nobody has a serious issue with this minus some occasional local drama. But, the second somebody claims one of the boys is trans everyone loses their minds. However, the reality is, even by their own metrics, trans (male to female or even female to male) may be stronger than bio females, but are less strong than bio men. So saying that bio men should be allowed to play FH and cheering this while saying trans is a danger to the injury rate due to the increased average strength makes zero sense for a host of reasons.

Quote: Gandler

In my experience people use the locker room they identified with even when I was in. For example at my school one of the "controversies," was how for every game now they also needed open a male locker room, and the costs, etc..... Of course, nobody actually cared about this (and the cost of opening a second locker room during a massive game was nothing anyway all things considered compared to the planned costs), and they were just trying to find reasons it should not be allowed.

For example, if this truly was just a male playing FH (as has happened for years) there is a 100% chance they were in the male locker room (even if they were alone.) The more I read you guys I tend to believe it was very possible this is a run of the mill male FH player and the right wing idiots are just rolling with the trans nonsense.

It's almost like people only care about certain issues when it comes to trans (allegedly) being involved. Like that sexual assault case from a few weeks ago that was bathroom related (but was a male student though people claimed trans for a while.) I guess it is good that they care about sexual assault sometimes even if just in passing, but really it is just an excuse to bash trans. And, once info comes out that they are not trans, this many pages of outrage will cease. Nobody will start saying that this is a sign that FH safety equipment needs to be reformulated or stuff that would actually prevent injuries.....

Everyone who has been in HS in the last 20 years knows that boys can play in the FH team in every state (and for whatever reason gendered FH teams are extremely rare so this means gender diverse teams.) Nobody has a serious issue with this minus some occasional local drama. But, the second somebody claims one of the boys is trans everyone loses their minds. However, the reality is, even by their own metrics, trans (male to female or even female to male) may be stronger than bio females, but are less strong than bio men. So saying that bio men should be allowed to play FH and cheering this while saying trans is a danger to the injury rate due to the increased average strength makes zero sense for a host of reasons.

I'm kind of looking forward to the day when or if the Supreme Court addresses whether a trans person can ID as the opposite sex because I expect to hear the statement that you can't identify as the opposite sex unless you were born the opposite sex. To me, this sounds very similar that you can't be gay because both of you have the same sex organs. It's the same reference to the way a person is born deciding who they are whether sexually or gender.

Quote: rxwine

I'm kind of looking forward to the day when or if the Supreme Court addresses whether a trans person can ID as the opposite sex because I expect to hear the statement that you can't identify as the opposite sex unless you were born the opposite sex. To me, this sounds very similar that you can't be gay because both of you have the same sex organs. It's the same reference to the way a person is born deciding who they are whether sexually or gender.

It is an interesting question, I am not sure if any court has heard that issue before. But, it will be interesting if it comes to that. I think most states already allow methods for changing gender, the individual requirements may be different, but I do not know of any that flat out deny it (and the Feds have methods in place for most Fed IDs.) Unless there is some State that I am not aware of, I am not sure if there is an urgent need for that.