Malaysian Jet

April 6th, 2014 at 11:42:12 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Wizard
What do you think the fair line should be on at least one living survivor ever being found?


Well outside the bounds of good taste?
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
April 6th, 2014 at 11:53:45 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 189
Posts: 18812
Quote: Fleastiff
Also, the maneuvering is being described as evasive, but it is in fact a perfectly proper and correct response of any well trained pilot who has just detected an onboard fire. .


Remember the Val-u-Jet crash in the Everglades? I also remember it being described as one of the worst recovery conditions ever, even though they knew where it went down. Wearing scuba gear in a sweltering muddy swamp, plus alligators.

Quote:
On the afternoon of May 11, 1996, Flight 592 pushed back from gate G2 in Miami after a delay of 1 hour and 4 minutes due to mechanical problems.[1] There were 105 passengers, mainly from Florida and Georgia, on board, as well as a crew of two pilots and three flight attendants, bringing the total number of people on board to 110. At 2:04 pm, 10 minutes before the disaster, the DC-9 took off from runway 9L and began a normal climb.

At 2:10 pm, Captain Candalyn Kubeck and First Officer Richard Hazen heard a loud bang in their headphones and noticed the plane was losing electrical power. Seconds later, flight attendant Mandy Summers entered the cockpit and advised the flight crew of a fire in the passenger cabin. Passengers' shouts of "fire, fire, fire" were recorded on the plane's cockpit voice recorder when the cockpit door was opened. Though the ValuJet flight attendant manual stated that the cockpit door should not be opened when smoke or other harmful gases might be present in the cabin, the intercom was disabled and there was no other way to inform the pilots of what was happening. The CDR indicated a progressive failure of the DC-9's electrical and flight control systems due to the spreading fire.

Kubeck and Hazen immediately asked air traffic control for a return to Miami due to smoke in the cockpit and cabin, and were given instructions for a return to the airport. One minute later, Hazen requested the nearest available airport. Kubeck began to turn the plane left in preparation for the return to Miami.

Flight 592 disappeared from radar at 2:13:42 pm. It rolled onto its side and crashed to the ground nose-first in the Francis S. Taylor Wildlife Management Area in the Everglades, a few miles west of Miami, at a speed in excess of 507 miles per hour (816 km/h). Control of the plane was completely lost less than 10 seconds prior to impact and examination of debris suggested that the fire burned through the floorboards in the cockpit, resulting in structural failure and damage to cables underneath the instrument panels. However, it was also just as likely that the crew had become incapacitated by smoke and fumes. As power had been lost to the cockpit voice recorder nearly a minute prior to impact, it was impossible to determine with certainty.[1]

Kubeck, Hazen, the three flight attendants, and all 105 passengers aboard were killed. Recovery of the aircraft and victims was made extremely difficult by the location of the crash. The nearest road of any kind was more than a quarter mile (400 m) away from the crash scene, and the location of the crash itself was a deep-water swamp with a floor made out of solid limestone. The DC-9 was utterly destroyed on impact, with no large pieces of the fuselage remaining. Sawgrass, alligators, and risk of bacterial infection from cuts plagued searchers involved in the recovery effort.

A group of fishermen witnessed the crash and reported that "The plane was flying in a steep right bank, after which it turned so that the nose was facing downward in a nearly vertical angle. It plummeted into the swamp followed by an explosion, shock wave, and a massive geyser of water." They reported seeing no external damage to the DC-9 or any sign of fire or smoke other than the engine exhaust. A group of sightseers in a small private plane also witnessed the crash and provided a nearly identical account, stating that Flight 592 seemed to "disappear" after impacting the swamp and they could see nothing but scattered small debris and part of an engine near the crash site


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
April 6th, 2014 at 12:41:30 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
That was inadvertent disengagement of the altitude hold function and no one registered the single chime that indicated it. They slowly descended while focused on a blown out seventeen cent bulb. Cockpit Resource Management. No one was flying the plane.

A descent from altitude to sea level would be worse.

So far some of the most suspicious events are ones involving Chinese ships suddenly discovering pings.
April 6th, 2014 at 4:59:12 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
SOOPOO,

I don't think the bet is resolved yet.

rxwine,

I don't think your scenario should be ruled out. I do think that someone in the back, in this age of flight sims, might make a try at it, but it's hard to imagine how the flight crew dies and the cabin remains free to solicit a volunteer to attempt to get them on the ground. So it seems unlikely at best; more likely they were all incapacitated by lost cabin pressure or something than that the crew was killed and the plane flyable.

Wizard,

Really?

All,

I think the absence of any known motive is glaring, for the scenarios involving either suicide or terrorism. Hypoxia seems possible, but then why the course change without communication, and loss of all tracking systems? It's nearly unheard of, with 2 crew in the cockpit, that there would be no advisory to ATC of emergency or course correction for same, so for me, a developing situation of more than 10 seconds duration is mostly out. I still think, ridiculous as it seems, that the aircraft is most likely landed somewhere and under cover. It's neither that expensive nor that difficult to build a large open hangar with camoflage overhead, on a private island, or in a rustic country, with many in range. It's only 7000 feet of runway. I think this is only Chapter 1.
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
April 6th, 2014 at 5:35:02 PM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
Member since: Oct 23, 2012
Threads: 239
Posts: 6095
Quote: beachbumbabs
I still think, ridiculous as it seems, that the aircraft is most likely landed somewhere and under cover. It's neither that expensive nor that difficult to build a large open hangar with camoflage overhead, on a private island, or in a rustic country, with many in range. It's only 7000 feet of runway. I think this is only Chapter 1.


It is exactly that kind of scenario that I offered to bet on at least one survivor at 200 to 1.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
April 6th, 2014 at 7:44:07 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
Quote: Wizard
It is exactly that kind of scenario that I offered to bet on at least one survivor at 200 to 1.


Well, I won't bet against you, then, but I'll take your side of it if you find a live one.
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
April 6th, 2014 at 8:36:02 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Wizard
It is exactly that kind of scenario that I offered to bet on at least one survivor at 200 to 1.


One difficulty is that it could be difficult to determine that there are no survivors. Without the recorder box, there remains the possibility that the plane was stolen, some critical passengers were kidnapped, or that the hijackers survived and that this concept is a dry run.

Kidnapping is a $1.5 billion a year business. While it seems extreme to steal a jet to kidnap someone, there are jets that carry British royals, the Prime Minister, and many other extremely high value people.

For instance, The Prince William and Duchess Kate travel on a commercial jet across continents. For instance last year they expensed
£107,958 Commercial flight LHR - Singapore - Kuala Lumpur- Brisbane - LHR
£172,436 Charter Kota Kinabalu - Honiara - Funafuti -Brisbane
Rather than spend upwards of £700,000 for a charter jet to fly them from London to Singapore, they fly commercial for the long hauls, and lease a private jet for the short hauls and the remote destinations.

What is the potential ransom for a future head of state? I am sure $500 million to a $1 billion is not out of line. What about a prime minister?
April 6th, 2014 at 8:57:44 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25013
I'm sticking with what the expert in the first week
said. Pilot suicide, the plane augered into the
ocean at a steep angle doing 600 knots. The
result is like hitting a mile thick brick wall and
the plane would have splintered into a literal
million pieces of plane and bodies on impact.
Debris so small it will never be detected,
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 6th, 2014 at 9:12:38 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Evenbob
I'm sticking with what the expert in the first week said. Pilot suicide


Anything is possible. But I doubt that the pilot could fly a plane for several hours with or without a load of screaming passengers, just to crash into the sea. It's inconsistent with suicidal behavior.
April 7th, 2014 at 12:00:47 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25013
Quote: Pacomartin
Anything is possible. But I doubt that the pilot could fly a plane for several hours with or without a load of screaming passengers, just to crash into the sea. It's inconsistent with suicidal behavior.


With our Western view of suicidal behavior, yes. There
are different views. Cold and calculating is one of them.
And he wouldn't be piloting the plane, autopilot would.
The AF pilot major in the family says flying a plane that
size manually for more then 30min is completely exhausting,
it had to be on auto. My theory is he flew till he was almost
out of fuel and took it full speed into the cement floor that
is the ocean.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.