Original Sin?

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March 9th, 2014 at 4:06:42 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 48
Posts: 5208
This week is the first Sunday in Lent and the first reading from Genesis was about the original sin. What do you all think original sin is or do you even think there is some thing like original sin?

I'll start off by saying that in the Genesis story Eve and Adam eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and therefore the temptation was so that they could be in charge, they could be like God. They wanted to determine for themselves what is good and bad and not have to listen to God; who after original sin they saw as a tyrant or dictator, not a loving father. This is a strong temptation in all of us, we want to be the boss and determine for ourselves and in our own unique circumstances what we think is right or wrong. So all this is to say that for me I think Original Sin is the tendency in all of us to be selfish and make ourselves into the ultimate lawgiver and judge about what is right or wrong (usually based on what's best for me).
March 9th, 2014 at 4:18:55 PM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 75
Posts: 1601
Quote: FrGamble
the tree of Knowledge


starting out OK, probably hard to translate, but it's hard for us to be against getting knowledge today

Quote: FrGamble
Knowledge of Good


even better

Quote: FrGamble
Knowledge of Good and Evil


knowing Evil. There's the rub maybe. Ok, all that was a bit tongue-in-cheek. It's an allegory of course. It always strikes me that there is innocence of simple, natural life, yes, the earliest times. Then the complication of modern life and the arrogance of Man that does come with knowing more.
The light at the end of the tunnel is often a freight train coming the other way! per Fleastiff
March 9th, 2014 at 4:24:28 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 330
Posts: 11556
Quote: FrGamble
This is a strong temptation in all of us, we want to be the boss and determine for ourselves and in our own unique circumstances what we think is right or wrong. So all this is to say that for me I think Original Sin is the tendency in all of us to be selfish and make ourselves into the ultimate lawgiver and judge about what is right or wrong (usually based on what's best for me).


So it is a sin to want to determine good and evil by one's judgment and reason, rather than merely accepting them unthinkingly by faith?

If so, I embrace the "sin," enthusiastically and with great joy.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
March 9th, 2014 at 5:29:12 PM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
Posts: 241
I'm with Nareed.

Quote: FrGamble
They wanted to determine for themselves what is good and bad and not have to listen to God; who after original sin they saw as a tyrant or dictator, not a loving father
Go back and read your bible, Genesis chapters 2 to 5. It's a short read. There's no mention of motivation or animus other than a talking serpent. Not a word or even a hint about tyranny or dictatorship. If you want to read that narrative into that rather simple story then that tells me more about FrGamble than about your God.
March 9th, 2014 at 5:33:51 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 330
Posts: 11556
Quote: s2dbaker
I'm with Nareed.


Then I'm in good company.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
March 9th, 2014 at 7:26:50 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 48
Posts: 5208
Before the fall they walked with God as a friend and loving parent, after the fall they cover themselves and hide from Him. Why did they hide? For the first time they were scared of God, they no longer saw Him as a loving Father who unconditionally loved them or else they wouldn't have hid. Just for the record I think Jesus teaches us to correct this understanding and heal our relationship with God and see Him as a loving Father again in whom we can trust and who loves us unconditionally.

And yes I do think it can lead to grave sin when we subjectively determine for ourselves what is right or wrong. In fact my conception of the original sin is precisely that.

I really want to hear a little more about what you believe not that you disagree with me or my interpretation of Scripture: Do you think it is okay for people to determine what is right or wrong for themselves, using their own emotions, feelings, and desires as the determining factor? Do you think there is something inherent in us that leads to wanting to be served rather than to serve?
March 9th, 2014 at 7:46:17 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 330
Posts: 11556
Quote: FrGamble
And yes I do think it can lead to grave sin when we subjectively determine for ourselves what is right or wrong. In fact my conception of the original sin is precisely that.


You just added subjectively. At first you used the word "think" and the word judge.

Quote:
Do you think it is okay for people to determine what is right or wrong for themselves, using their own emotions, feelings, and desires as the determining factor?


How does thinking and judgment squares with emotions, feelings and desires? They don't. It's either one or the other.

Further, the way you out things ether 1) the deity is the only one able to reason, or 2) what the deity says is good and bad are only his own subjective interpretations based on his feelings, desires and emotions.

Quote:
Do you think there is something inherent in us that leads to wanting to be served rather than to serve?


Both alternatives are wrong. I prefer to trade.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
March 9th, 2014 at 8:01:41 PM permalink
Mosca
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 17
Posts: 412
I always felt that the story is about evolution and the dawn of self awareness in humans. Protohumans become reflective upon their own condition then become curious. With curiosity comes doubt, and the ability to think for one's self. The rise of philosophy. All that stuff.

But what the heck do I know.
March 9th, 2014 at 8:58:29 PM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
Posts: 241
Quote: FrGamble
Before the fall they walked with God as a friend and loving parent, after the fall they cover themselves and hid from Him. Why did they hide?
Since I can't get you to open your bible, I'll paste it here:
Quote: Bible
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
Bolding mine. This is pretty simple stuff. They eat from the fruit of the tree and realized that they were naked. It hadn't occurred to them before that.
Quote: FrGamble
For the first time they were scared of God, they no longer saw Him as a loving Father who unconditionally loved them or else they wouldn't have hid.
Clearly, they hid because they were naked. If they hid because they "were scared of God, they no longer saw Him as a loving Father who unconditionally loved them" then the bible would have said so. Seriously, there is no shortage of verbiage in that tome. A few more sentences to add clarity would not have made a difference if it were important enough.
Quote: FrGamble
Just for the record I think Jesus teaches us to correct this understanding and heal our relationship with God and see Him as a loving Father again in whom we can trust and who loves us unconditionally.

And yes I do think it can lead to grave sin when we subjectively determine for ourselves what is right or wrong. In fact my conception of the original sin is precisely that.
You didn't ask us about Jesus but whatever.. So who is the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong? Who is more qualified than I am to determine what is right and wrong for me and my everyday life? Just for the record, it was a talking serpent that goaded Eve into committing the "original sin", and any concept you may possess beyond that is irrelevant. And then you go on to say
Quote: FrGamble
I really want to hear a little more about what you believe not that you disagree with me or my interpretation of Scripture:
So you don't care about what the bible says, only what you think it should say. Okay, then state that up front. This is a conversation about what FrGamble thinks the bible should say. FrGamble is asking the rest of us to comment on what he thinks that the bible should say. I don't want to seem harsh here but we can't read your mind. We don't know what you think the bible should say, we can only go by what the bible actually does say. Don't attribute to the bible that which is not in the bible.
Quote: FrGamble
Do you think it is okay for people to determine what is right or wrong for themselves, using their own emotions, feelings, and desires as the determining factor? Do you think there is something inherent in us that leads to wanting to be served rather than to serve?
People already determine what is right and wrong for themselves. Whether they do that task for themselves or cede that task to a church and then modify the results to better fit their circumstances or even if they strictly adhere to the rantings of their local pastor, those people have still made an active choice to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. They either made it up for themselves or agreed to a set of rules previously established. Considering the fact that the church used to torch people for saying that the Earth was a planet that went around the sun, I think my concept of right and wrong is far superior.

The part about serving and being served is best served as another discussion.
March 9th, 2014 at 11:05:38 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 5
Posts: 677
I find that Original Sin is a concept I've willfully ignored for decades. And, in thinking about it now, I find I reject the concept as you present it. I think sin is an act of commission, willful or inadvertent, and does not convey in merely being born. I think it was a concept developed by man, not by God, in that you start with a strike against you that must be forgiven, you have already placed a person in a position of supplication to a higher power. God is omnipotent, so He has nothing to prove. Man, on the other hand, in subjugating other men to religious doctrine, wishes to establish the debt. So I see it as a manipulation of the priest class of ancient times, to impose unearned guilt, then to create a path of righteousness to attempt to cleanse that guilt.

The story of Adam and Eve impressed me most as a young woman as an ancient and uneducated attempt to explain the pain and difficulty of childbirth in humans, and to place permanent blame on women over men for human suffering and shame, so that men could assert their God-Given right of superiority over women. Neither of those are particularly attractive concepts to me, though the first is by far the worst. I felt terrified through much of my childhood to think that when it came time for me to bear children, it would be bloody, painful, lengthy, and possibly fatal. I'm not sure I ever left that dread behind. And, as it happens, I did not have any children, and I wonder if that extremely negative presentation of it affected my life to the extent that I avoided it for that very reason.
Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. -ersatz Buddha
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