Original Sin?

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March 10th, 2014 at 9:30:30 AM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
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Quote: chickenman
Does Genesis say the serpent was the devil (evil) or was that thrust upon it when Satan was invented? And, speak of the devil, isn't this the same thing that caused his downfall, i.e. wanting to be God?
First part, no. The talking serpent in Genesis is just a talking serpent. Really!! It's a short read. Go read it. I could paste it here, that's how short the story is. But I'm on my phone. No pasting! The talking serpent is not a devil because when God metes out punishment for the original sin, he punishes the talking serpent, not the devil inside. Unless God is an unjust God, it was the talking serpent's fault. Part two, I dunno. The parts of the bible that mention Satan say nothing about His history.
March 10th, 2014 at 9:37:03 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
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Quote: Mosca
What about someone like myself, who cannot believe? I tried, but in my heart I know it isn't true. Is it my fault, or is it part of the way I'm wired?


That is a very good question. I think the most important part of the question is your effort and continued openness. In such cases I would always side with mercy and love, so if sinful old me says that what do you think an infinitely merciful and loving God would say?

I think God is much harder on those who are closed minded, materialistic, and lazy in the face of the important questions about faith and belief.
March 10th, 2014 at 9:49:04 AM permalink
Wizard
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Quote: FrGamble
One more very important point - there is no limbo!


What is the difference between limbo and purgatory?
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
March 10th, 2014 at 9:53:35 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
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Both in the OT and NT the serpent mentioned in Genesis is referred to as the devil. In Wisdom 2:24 and in Revelation 12:9 you can see examples of this.

Also I'm glad s2dbaker mentioned the verse in which the serpent is punished, Genesis 3:15, because it is often called the proto-Gospel where God puts enmity between the serpent's offspring and the woman's (Eve's) offspring and says that you (the devil) will strike at His (interpreted as referring to Christ) will strike at your head. Jews believed this as referencing Isaiah's suffering servant image of the Messiah, who Christians saw as Jesus. It predicts that evil will cause the suffering of one of Eve's descendants who through that suffering would finally deliver the fatal blow to the evil one.
March 10th, 2014 at 9:53:53 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 95
Posts: 5828
Let me jump in a little late here, Padre.

First let me say that we have to take the story of creation as an allegorical story and not act like the haters in this world and insist it cannot be true because it is somehow impossible. It needs to be taken as a sort-of parable before Jesus showed up and taught with this method.

That being said, I find two lessons that can and shoud be learned from The Story of Creation and Original Sin.

The first is that blindly listening to your spouse can destroy your relationship with God and others. Lets think about it. God put Adam in the Graden and told him to enjoy himself. Do whatever you like, relax! But, Adam, just one thing. See that tree over there? I'm kind of still working on it. Making a new hybrid fruit and I really need you not to eat from it or even touch it. Can you do that for me?

Sure, God, no problem. But hey it is kind of lonely up here, if you can give me some company when you get a chance that would be great, no rush, I'm sure you are busy.

So later that afternoon, after Adam woke up and said, "wow, best nap I ever had!" God shows up and introduces him to Eve. After that God says, "You two will like each other, I know it! Hey, Adam, explain the ground rules to Eve, I have to run."

Eventually Eve asks, "Just what is with God not wanting you to eat from that tree? What makes him so good?"

"Honey, look, it is great here, we can eat anything else. he is being reasonable."

"Well, fine. We won't eat from it if that is how you feel."

The rest is history.

Now, compare this to any number of situations where a spouse, male or female, makes a person choose their mate over something else in the person's life. How many men had a job they liked working for a guy in a small shop or somehting then the wife/gf "convinces" him he is getting a raw deal? How many guys of girls lose their close friends because the mate dislikes them? When this happens, eventually the person who gave in to their mate loses their own personal life and ends up in a downward life spiral?

This takes us to Original Sin. The lesson here is that you pass your sins on to your children and they will have to live with them, thus to avoid hurting your children you should avoid sinning. Lets take an example from modern times.

Imagine a person who likes to drink and do a few drugs more than they like to work. They don't have a good track record of paying their bills, formal or informal. They have a child (for fans of "Breaking Bad" pretend the house looks like the house when Jesse goes to collect the money stolen from his street dealer.

What will this kid's life be like? His health is going to be poor, hit teeth may end up rotted. His chances of doing well in school are nil. When he goes to get a job his family's reputation will be known, dampening his prospects. Even if he deccides to take a "street life" on, every underworld person will make it hard on him because his dad is a known deadbeat.

So his father's sins are cast on him from the day he is born.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
March 10th, 2014 at 10:09:27 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4841
Quote: Wizard
What is the difference between limbo and purgatory?


Purgatory, which is official Catholic teaching, is the waiting room for Heaven. I think of it as a mud room. We had one when I was a kid, after coming in from playing outside our shoes and clothes might be all muddy, the mud room was where we could take this stuff off, clean up and be ready to enter the house. Purgatory is not a bad place, I'm hoping to be there some day. There is only one direction to go from purgatory, which is temporary, and that is straight up to Heaven. You can think of it as purifying, which has led some to think there are fires and it is painful. My response is that if it is painful, like surgery to remove cancer of something like that we know two things, it is temporary and it will lead toward eternal happiness - these two aspects of purgatory would I imagine make any purification an eager joy for us so that we can enter into Heaven and the presence of God perfect.

Limbo was described as a perfect place of physical happiness but outside of the beatific vision or the presence of God. It was theorized that it was a permanent place for those who were not forgiven of original sin but committed no personal sins of their own. Think of it as the garden of Eden where there is no suffering or pain and physically enjoyable but where you are separated from Heaven, the angels, saints, and God. Again it does not exist in Catholic theology but you can sense that the those who proposed it where struggling with the necessity of baptism for salvation as clearly stated by Jesus and the situation of innocent children who died without baptism. They implicitly knew a just and loving God would not condemn these innocents to hell so they invented a place called limbo.
March 10th, 2014 at 11:56:26 AM permalink
Wizard
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Thanks Padre. Another question, if I may. Where was Jesus the few days between the crucifixion and resurrection?
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
March 10th, 2014 at 12:07:43 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10153
To accept original sin, you have to believe god
created this entire complicated universe just so
he could test us. This might have seemed
plausible 6000 years ago, when these concepts
were born, and we knew nothing about anything.
Today they seem not only far fetched, but ludicrous.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
March 10th, 2014 at 12:28:00 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4841
Quote: Wizard
Thanks Padre. Another question, if I may. Where was Jesus the few days between the crucifixion and resurrection?


The Apostle's Creed mentions, "He descended into Hell." This leads to two points: first, Jesus did truly die and second, from the depths of death brought the message of salvation to the just souls who had gone before Him.
March 10th, 2014 at 12:29:24 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4841
Quote: Evenbob
To accept original sin, you have to believe god
created this entire complicated universe just so
he could test us. This might have seemed
plausible 6000 years ago, when these concepts
were born, and we knew nothing about anything.
Today they seem not only far fetched, but ludicrous.


Why did this idea seem plausible back then but not today? What is so far fetched or ludicrous about being tested?
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