Original Sin?

The multitudes at WoV I think we're getting upset about religious topics on a specific gambling forum. DT seemed like a better fit for those willing to discuss a wider variety of things more often.

Quote: FrGamble

I take it that I have explained things and clarified my position to my liberal friend well enough.

Yes, though you show a sad lack of understanding of what atheism is and still seem convinced that morality can only be imposed by a religious authority/god. I understand that your background means that you don't dare question your faith. Fine, but it also keeps you from questioning your own assumptions. Think about that for a minute or two.

If you'll excuse me now, I have to attend the local Evil Atheists meeting. We are all so empty and morally bankrupt...

Quote: stinkingliberal

Yes, though you show a sad lack of understanding of what atheism is

Then return the favor for me having helped you clear up your lack of understanding of Catholicism. Teach me, all I have ever heard from atheists is that atheism is nothing. It is a lack of belief. They sometimes try to pretend this is not a decision that needs to be supported by evidence, but I think you know better than that.

Here is a question: Could someone properly understanding atheism arrive at the conclusion that life is a meaningless accident without value and that there is no objective morality? Is there anything in an atheistic mindset that would dissuade someone from reaching this conclusion?

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and still seem convinced that morality can only be imposed by a religious authority/god.

First of all even you believe that morality is imposed upon us. You mentioned earlier that is a word meant to express our desire for survival and group harmony. What you failed to ask yourself is; "who says survival and group harmony is a good thing?" I agree with you that these two things and many more are held by every human being to be goods. We cannot decide for ourselves that group harmony, respect of individuals, and our survival are good or bad - they are imposed upon us. If so than who has the power, wisdom, and universal presence to impose such moral truths upon all of humanity? God is the only answer.

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I understand that your background means that you don't dare question your faith. Fine, but it also keeps you from questioning your own assumptions. Think about that for a minute or two.

Evenbob, um...excuse me, sinkingliberal, I question my faith all the time it is the best way to grow in the understanding. I think we all protect our assumptions from questioning and that is why I appreciate this forum so much and why I try not to get defensive and shut down the conversation when I am shown to be wrong about something. This is a classic Evenbob technique you are using here, you are avoiding and refusing to admit when you are wrong or when you fail to question your lack of faith in God or your own assumptions. Embrace the doubt and rejoice in hard questions, they will lead you to the truth.

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If you'll excuse me now, I have to attend the local Evil Atheists meeting. We are all so empty and morally bankrupt...

I thought we made it clear that atheists are not evil inherently and that obviously not all are evil - you and Nareed are apparent examples of good atheists. You are wrong to think all atheists are evil, however you might be getting close to recognizing that atheism does not make someone good either.

Quote: FrGamble

My only point is that atheism is no help to living a moral life and taken seriously it can actually be a temptation to not be moral, or at least be diabolically selfish...I maintain that atheism taken seriously offers no resistance to your decision to be evil...What moral compass could atheism possibly provide?..The problem is that atheism robs us of the ability to talk about objective evil or what is really good...It is your illogical and despairing ideology of atheism that robs humanity of ultimate justice and happiness. Without God we are left without meaning and in despair.

Everything you say about atheism here is wrong.
You still treat atheism like it's a religion, that it
gets it's marching orders from some entity like
your Vatican. Not believing in gods robs us of
nothing, doesn't fill us with despair, doesn't
make us diabolically selfish, doesn't make us
any more prone to doing immoral acts than
any god lover on the planet. That's all wishful
thinking on your part.

What thinking for yourself does do, and that's
all atheism consists of, is makes us examine the
outcomes of our actions before we make them,
and determine if it's really in our best interest
to be out of line with what society demands of
us. It also lets us think what we want, like coveting
our neighbors hot wife, without worrying we are
offending some busybody old god who has nothing
better to do than intrude on our thoughts.

Atheism lets us lead lives that we get to make up
as we go along, rather than follow the template
of some long dead holier than thou stick up his
arse uptight religious type, who's greatest joy
was to poke his nose in other peoples lives and
tell them how to live. You fell for that hook line and
sinker, now you think it's your job to suck everybody
down that rabbit hole with you.

Good luck with that, people all over the world are
throwing off the shackles of organized religion
and are thinking for themselves. I'd thank god
if he existed to be thanked.

Quote: Evenbob

Atheism lets us lead lives that we get to make up
as we go along, rather than follow the template
of some long dead holier than thou stick up his
arse uptight religious type, who's greatest joy
was to poke his nose in other peoples lives and
tell them how to live. You fell for that hook line and
sinker, now you think it's your job to suck everybody
down that rabbit hole with you.

I more or less agree with Bob, albeit without the punctuation and spelling errors and overall, with a less nasty tone than he's using.

Religion used to be as much a force for evil as for good in the world. Now, it's mildly on the side of good as a whole. I think that believers are deluded but that their delusions have good (they are good people and see religion as a way to spread good) or at least neutral (religion helps them make sense out of an unfair and illogical existence) motivations.

But atheism is far more logical than believing in a divine being or beings the existence of whom has no proof. And "despair"? Speak for yourself--I am an atheist and don't despair at all.

Welcome back!

Quote: Evenbob

Everything you say about atheism here is wrong.
You still treat atheism like it's a religion, that it
gets it's marching orders from some entity like
your Vatican. Not believing in gods robs us of
nothing, doesn't fill us with despair, doesn't
make us diabolically selfish, doesn't make us
any more prone to doing immoral acts than
any god lover on the planet. That's all wishful
thinking on your part.

Actually I examined what you said above closely and I almost 100% agree. You are robbed of something by not believing in God but from your perspective you lose nothing so I see where you are coming from. My big question is why in the world you think I thought any of those things about atheism? You are basically agreeing with me that atheism is nothing and neutral. It does not cause one to be immoral or evil nor does it do anything to stop one from being evil. It is this last point that I find very dangerous.

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What thinking for yourself does do, and that's
all atheism consists of,

That is all? I think for myself and I am not an atheist. Why do you think thinking for yourself leads to atheism, the two don't follow from each other at all.

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is makes us examine the
outcomes of our actions before we make them,
and determine if it's really in our best interest
to be out of line with what society demands of
us.

Christianity makes us examine the outcomes of our actions before we make them, and determine if it is really good, right, and true. You damn yourself with your own words. If you base your actions only if it is in your best interest or if it is what society tells you to do this is a huge problem. An atheist does not have to think this way, but only an atheistic mindset allows such thoughts to go unchallenged.

Quote:

It also lets us think what we want, like coveting
our neighbors hot wife, without worrying we are
offending some busybody old god who has nothing
better to do than intrude on our thoughts.

Again you are demonstrating the worst possible thing about atheism!!! It allows you not only to covet your neighbors wife but if you determine it is in your best interest and you can get away with it you can kidnap her too. God has nothing better to do than protect you from wrongheaded thoughts and guide you away from harmful actions.

Quote:

Atheism lets us lead lives that we get to make up
as we go along,

Please stop - you are making me more and more scared of atheism. With stinkingliberal I was much more confident in allowing atheists to persist in their self delusion but you make me want to do anything I can to show the foolishness of thinking there is no God, for the sake of the soul of the person and the good of society!

Quote: stinkingliberal

But atheism is far more logical than believing in a divine being or beings the existence of whom has no proof.

This is the exact opposite. Atheism is anti-logic. You may not believe in the proof of miracles, the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth, the historical truths and archeology, the personal experiences of believers, the growth of Christianity around the world, modern cosmology, the witness of great saints and converted sinners, the testimony of many of the smartest scientists, philosophers, and intellectuals the world has ever known; but you cannot say there is no evidence for the existence of God. What evidence is there to claim there is no God? You don't need loads of evidence to claim there might not be a God, because that is not a positive statement of fact, but then you are not an atheist. You do need evidence to claim there is not a God. Do you have any? The answer is no.

Not only do you not have any evidence you also don't have a logical argument to not believe in God. You don't have anything like the cosmological argument, the argument from contingency, causality, you don't have an logical argument like the existence of moral goods or evil, even the fine tuning of the universe (while a very weak argument for God's existence) betrays you.

I am fine if for whatever reason you have decided not to believe in God, but please do not for an instant think that this decision is logical or based on any evidence at all.

Quote: FrGamble

You do need evidence to claim there is not a God.

Actually, the exact opposite is true. Fantastical claims need evidence to support them. There is no evidence to support the fantastical claim of an omniscient and omnipotent deity. This is the simple truth, even though Christians have been trying to present non-facts as "evidence" for 2000+ years. Look at eggplant! How could eggplant exist if there wasn't a God? That sort of drivel.

I'm not going to accept your insults that my refusal to believe in something imaginary is not based on logic. I am, in fact, a highly intelligent and logical person, more so than someone of faith would be. I refuse to believe in something just because it would make me feel good to do so. That's intellectual honesty and yes, a healthy skepticism.

This debate, being pointless, is over. I should learn that you can't have a rational discussion with a person of faith, as faith is the direct opposite of rational inquiry.

Quote: stinkingliberal

Actually, the exact opposite is true. Fantastical claims need evidence to support them.

Any statement of fact or that claims to be true needs evidence to support it. If you think that there is no God then you need evidence. If you don't know if there is a God or not then that is a horse of a different color.

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There is no evidence to support the fantastical claim of an omniscient and omnipotent deity.

Actually there is, but I understand that you don't accept them. What there is clearly not is evidence that there is not a God. You haven't even tried to present it nor have you given any logical argument that supports the conclusion of atheism.

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I'm not going to accept your insults that my refusal to believe in something imaginary is not based on logic. I am, in fact, a highly intelligent and logical person,

I agree that you are, but not in this matter. When it comes to matters of faith or discussions about God and religion people resort to the same craziness we see in the political discussions, which are more based on feelings or emotions. It is not an insult and I implore you not to give up on our discussion. Simply ask yourself what logical reason do I have to not believe in God. Don't worry just because you don't have a logical reason to be an atheist does not mean you should become a theist. I am sure you have good reasons to be an atheists and it seems to be important to your world view. It is not logical, but not everything we believe is logical. I believe in all kinds based on something other than logic, we all do.

Quote: FrGamble

This is the exact opposite. Atheism is anti-logic. .

Atheism is pure logic. Christianity is pure
emotion. Go to any of their services and
it's raw emotion on display. Waving their
arms over their heads, some of them weeping,
some praising Jesus with choked voices.
Even the Catholic service is filled with things that
are meant to hit you in the emotional gut. There's
Jesus, still up on his cross, bigger than life,
reminding you of his sacrifice. There's the
statues of the saints and martyrs, more
reminders of pain and suffering.

Christianity appeals to our basic emotional needs,
to be told what to do by a stern father and to
constantly worry about staying in his good graces.
Atheism looks at this emotional mess and asks,
what's the evidence that god even exists, let alone
deserves all the sturm and drang expressed in his
name. That's all an atheist wants before he throws
himself off the cliff of religious soap opera land,
we just want the slightest shred of evidence that
god is there.