High Speed Trains are Killing the European Railway Network

High Speed Trains are Killing the European Railway Network from Low Tech Magazine

The author promised his readers he would not fly 5 years ago. He traveled across Europe almost exclusively by train (apart from the occasional boat trip), good for some 70,000 km of long-distance travel.

He bemoans many of the high speed rail links as having doubled the price of a rail trip while giving 25% more speed. Popular overnight trains that have been running for 40 years are being abandoned. As high speed rail usually means new tracks and certainly means limited stops, many of his old routes are now impossible.

The conclusion is that the middle class in Europe are now crowded into low cost air transit, while the upper class are now taking trains, thus reversing the status of decades ago. It's like the 1950's when the classes for transatlantic travel switched, so that middle class people took airlines and only the rich took a ship.

Quote: Pacomartin

High Speed Trains are Killing the European Railway Network from Low Tech Magazine

The author promised his readers he would not fly 5 years ago. He traveled across Europe almost exclusively by train (apart from the occasional boat trip), good for some 70,000 km of long-distance travel.

He bemoans many of the high speed rail links as having doubled the price of a rail trip while giving 25% more speed. Popular overnight trains that have been running for 40 years are being abandoned. As high speed rail usually means new tracks and certainly means limited stops, many of his old routes are now impossible.

The conclusion is that the middle class in Europe are now crowded into low cost air transit, while the upper class are now taking trains, thus reversing the status of decades ago. It's like the 1950's when the classes for transatlantic travel switched, so that middle class people took airlines and only the rich took a ship.

I bounce my guys all over Europe via air. The only train I book is Paris to UK through the chunnel and even that's kind of rare because most of my travelers don't have business in Paris. I probably book more Lyon then Paris. About the only trains my guys take are FRA to MUC and LON going north, which I don't arrange, easier to just buy the ticket there.

Quote: Pacomartin

The conclusion is that the middle class in Europe are now crowded into low cost air transit, while the upper class are now taking trains, thus reversing the status of decades ago.

The conclusion is that if high speed trains can't make it in train-friendly Europe, they probably don't stand a chance anywhere else. Except perhaps for some specialized, popular routes.

Quote:

It's like the 1950's when the classes for transatlantic travel switched, so that middle class people took airlines and only the rich took a ship.

Have you seen what passage from NYC to London costs on a ship? Considering you get lodging, and have food and amenities available for several days, well, it's not that high. but for the business travel such costs in time and money are just too high.

Quote: Nareed

The conclusion is that if high speed trains can't make it in train-friendly Europe, they probably don't stand a chance anywhere else. Except perhaps for some specialized, popular routes..

Extremely short, very busy routes can be replaced by high speed train. The Madrid to Barcelona flight (300 miles) was one of the busiest in the world. Now it has been replaced by a 3 hour train. Although a plane can fly 300 miles in considerably less than an hour, a 3 hour train ride is a reasonable trade considering the time spent boarding a jet, plus a train station is usually more conveniently located than an airport. Plus you have 3 major stops on the way for secondary destinations.

The author is talking about a 1000 mile trip like the one between Barcelona and Amsterdam. With the stops and transfers it still takes 11 hours despite the high speed.
A low-cost airline for €100 if you book one to two weeks in advance, and for about €200 if you buy the ticket on the day of departure. That's compared to €580 for what the journey would cost you if you would take the high speed train.

In 2013, Southwest's average passenger airfare was $154.72 (€118) one way, and the average passenger trip length was approximately 966 miles.

Quote: Pacomartin

Extremely short, very busy routes can be replaced by high speed train. The Madrid to Barcelona flight (300 miles) was one of the busiest in the world. Now it has been replaced by a 3 hour train. Although a plane can fly 300 miles in considerably less than an hour, a 3 hour train ride is a reasonable trade considering the time spent boarding a jet, plus a train station is usually more conveniently located than an airport. Plus you have 3 major stops on the way for secondary destinations.

All true, and what I meant that a few routes might benefit.

There's a flight Mex City to El Bajio (between Guanajuato and Leon). It takes about 40 minutes. But you have to be at the airport an hour in advance (with a pre-printed boarding pass and no luggage; two hours otherwise). From the airport to either city it's about another 40 minutes, depending on cab availability and traffic. Considering the time to get to the airport at around 30-40 minutes, depending on time and traffic, then the whole trip, one way, takes about three hours. Driving s about 3:30 hours and costs only a small fraction as the flight (plus in my case that means 3:30 hours of audio book as well). I'd rather drive.

Of course, if I have to drive back the same day, then that's 7 hours total driving time, give or take, and the flight begins to look very good. In this case a high-speed train would be perfect. Except if they ever make one it will likely cost much more than flying and take only a little less than driving (considering the driving time to the station).

Quote:

The author is talking about a 1000 mile trip like the one between Barcelona and Amsterdam. With the stops and transfers it still takes 11 hours despite the high speed.
A low-cost airline for €100 if you book one to two weeks in advance, and for about €200 if you buy the ticket on the day of departure. That's compared to €580 for what the journey would cost you if you would take the high speed train.

See, now, 11 hours on a train makes one wonder what they mean by "high" speed. Do they even still have dining cars and sleeping berths, or did they go away with the "high" speed service? I can't emerging in good shape after 11 hours overnight on a coach seat, even if you can move around (I've done it, on planes, but I didn't like it).

The price disparity is about what one would expect, too, given certain factors. Still, by all logic the train, "high" speed or not, should be much cheaper. In Mexico, even now, most flights are more expensive than their equivalents by first-class luxury bus (which I still won't ride if I have any choice, such as driving). Just hwo high are the operating costs on the newfangled "high" speed trains?

What we need are supersonic trains. The way things are going, we may get them long before supersonic air travel.

Quote: Nareed

See, now, 11 hours on a train makes one wonder what they mean by "high" speed. Do they even still have dining cars and sleeping berths, or did they go away with the "high" speed service? I can't emerging in good shape after 11 hours overnight on a coach seat, even if you can move around (I've done it, on planes, but I didn't like it).

It is 6:33 from Barcelona to Paris, and 1:33 to change stations, and then 3:17 from Paris to Amsterdam (total 11:22)
09:20 BARCELONA SANTS - 15:53 PARIS GARE LYON
17:25 PARIS NORD - 20:42 AMSTERDAM CS

The Barcelona to Paris HSR is 2 to 4 times per day. The frequency is higher in summer than winter. There from 6 to 10 stops along the way depending on which train you take. All trains stop at the historic cities of Montpellier, Perpignan and Girona. The sleeper trains from Paris to Barcelona & Madrid were discontinued from 15 December 2013. For forty years they were affordable ($100) and beloved way to travel the 12 hours.

The author's point was that he used to sleep on that portion of the trip, have a nice meal and meet some people. He could switch to the day train to Amsterdam. While the whole trip was lengthy, it was pleasant and he would arrive ready to go losing a night and a day. Now it takes him the entire day, and he feels beat up and exhausted and he must now pay over 500 euros.

Quote: Nareed

The price disparity is about what one would expect, too, given certain factors. Still, by all logic the train, "high" speed or not, should be much cheaper. In Mexico, even now, most flights are more expensive than their equivalents by first-class luxury bus (which I still won't ride if I have any choice, such as driving). Just hwo high are the operating costs on the newfangled "high" speed trains?

I am not sure if it is operating costs or infrastructure costs.

Quote: Nareed

What we need are supersonic trains. The way things are going, we may get them long before supersonic air travel.

You and Elon Musk. He made a big presentation last August that was critical of California for not planning a supersonic train.

Quote: Nareed

There's a flight Mex City to El Bajio (between Guanajuato and Leon). It takes about 40 minutes. But you have to be at the airport an hour in advance (with a pre-printed boarding pass and no luggage; two hours otherwise). From the airport to either city it's about another 40 minutes, depending on cab availability and traffic. Considering the time to get to the airport at around 30-40 minutes, depending on time and traffic, then the whole trip, one way, takes about three hours. Driving s about 3:30 hours and costs only a small fraction as the flight (plus in my case that means 3:30 hours of audio book as well). I'd rather drive.

I flew into El Bajio. It's one of the nicest airports in Mexico. I assume that it is the next logical extension of the high speed rail from Mexico City to Queretero.

Barge canals revolutionized the UK, now they are quaint houseboats plying them. The Eire Canal moved freight at three miles per hour and shipping wheat from Chicago went from one hundred dollars a ton to seven dollars a ton even though rail roads traveled faster.

The USA used to have bus routes that stopped at every wide place in the road because no one could "skim cream" by only doing NYC to San Francisco buses. (The Green Tortoise is still in business though and its hippie owners are multi millionaires).

New trackage may be the key or new speeds. Few trains have over nite hotels or restaurants anymore. Few travelers want connecting trains, everyone wants direct to destination trains.

Anything is possible. Some say amtrak ceos intentionally harm their own routes so they can sell them to themselves. Business is dirty and lying is necessary to pull some of these things off.
I can personally see ways to compete with much of the public transportation companies here in the usa, and somehow their lost business would have to be reconciled with some changes. So I can see how his trains he loves might be losing to competitors forcing changes, but whose fault is it beyond competition.

I must know this guy from television because I kept hearing an annoying voice while reading the article. Public transportation is all screwy with prices and it does turn people away paying so much for last minute purchase. My experience sees many many open seats so I don't understand it.

Still who is to blame, who is this guy blaming?
Are the high speed rail and airlines being subsidized or special treatment with laws or special policy or law changes to benefit them? You need an even longer history report from him to solve this one and I don't have the patience.