Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

How about the testimony of other Christians.

You mean fantasy hearsay? That's only
evidence that they have a herd mentality,
like every organized religion. When you
see a thousand Muslims with their butts
in the air, do you really think god is
talking to them?

Quote:

What is the harm in giving it a try? .

I'd rather waste my time in more productive
ways. Talking to myself isn't one of them.

Quote: FrGamble

I do like Star Trek.

Not the same thing. I'm a recovering Trekkie.

Quote:

In the beginning of Genesis the Holy Book talks about 100% of the universe being created.

Really? Does it speak about binary stars, black holes, galaxies, pulsars, quasars, novae, super novae, dark matter, dark energy, the Big Bang? Does it even say when the universe was created? I don't think it was in six days.

Does it even mention planets?

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I'll bite, what are the other two books besides the Bible?

My mistake. It's, let's see: the Old Testament, the New Testament, the thing Jews read after the Torah only on Saturdays for some reason (I used to know what it was called), The Talmud and the Quran (however it's spelled). So that's five books.

Quote: Evenbob

You mean fantasy hearsay?

Since when is witness testimony fantasy hearsay. These people in your own family can tell you directly they have personally experience God through prayer and you are going to call it hearsay. Do you know what hearsay is? You've quoted the definition for us a few times I think.

Quote: FrGamble

Since when is witness testimony fantasy hearsay. These people in your own family can tell you directly they have personally experience God through prayer and you are going to call it hearsay. Do you know what hearsay is? You've quoted the definition for us a few times I think.

Not to agree with EvenBob (I feel unclean and have to take a shower afterwards), but witnesses are notoriously unreliable. So is uncorroborated testimony. When someone tells me he just had a vision, my reaction is, what you probably had was a hallucination. It's not exactly an uncommon phenomenon.

That "witness" may be fully, completely convinced that he saw that giant cheeseburger floating in the sky or whatever. But unless a completely independent observer who has no knowledge of that person's vision experience reports an exactly similar vision, the first person's testimony is worthless. And if no one else saw the giant floating cheeseburger, Occam's Razor suggests that it was indeed a hallucination rather than it was real and that this person was the only one to see it.

So if someone says "God manifested himself to me," I say, "Fine, did anyone else see it?" And that someone else would have to be unknown to that someone, to eliminate the possibility of biased observation and/or mutual reinforcement.

Parenthetically, if God wants us to believe in him, why would he be so coy about it? If he wrote "BELIEVE IN ME GOD DAMN IT" in thousand-foot high flaming letters across the sky, don't you think the convert rate would soar to 100%? Even us no-good immoral atheists!

Quote: FrGamble

Since when is witness testimony fantasy hearsay... Do you know what hearsay is?

You must be joking. Every time I use that
word you ask me if know what it means.
And every time I post this:

hear·say
ˈhirˌsā/
'
information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.

I always use the word correctly, I'm wondering
if you're the one who has no idea what hearsay
means.

So lets be clear. If my sister in law tells me god
talks to her, it's hearsay. She has no way to verify
or prove it's true. She cannot substantiate that
god talks to her.

sub·stan·ti·ate
səbˈstan(t)SHēˌāt/

provide evidence to support or prove the truth of.

Hearsay is not allowed in any court as evidence.
It's just opinion, or in this case, fantasy and wishful
thinking. She's been brainwashed since she could
talk that god speaks to her when she prays. Another
Xtion casualty..

Quote: stinkingliberal

Not to agree with EvenBob (I feel unclean and have to take a shower afterwards)

How flattering, Thanks..

Quote: Evenbob

How flattering, Thanks..

Well, you should be gratified that in those extremely rare instances when you're right, I do acknowledge it.

I have observed that your faith in Trump is very much like the unjustified faith in God that you decry, but I guess we all have our gods of one type or another. I would estimate your chances of getting Fr Gamble to acknowledge the illogic of Christian faith to be roughly equal to my chances of getting you to acknowledge Trump's unfitness for the Presidency.

Although, Christianity has never required its followers to paint themselves orange. The Trump religion lacks the symbolism of the Christian faith, but maybe all it needs is something like the crucifix--maybe you Trumpers could wear little assault rifles around your necks?

Nareed,
I was wondering if I might PM you for your advice on a difficult pastoral matter that has just arisen. Would that be okay?

Quote: stinkingliberal

Not to agree with EvenBob (I feel unclean and have to take a shower afterwards), but witnesses are notoriously unreliable. So is uncorroborated testimony. When someone tells me he just had a vision, my reaction is, what you probably had was a hallucination. It's not exactly an uncommon phenomenon.

Witnesses are very important in any court case, but you are correct they need to be questioned and often some of the minor details of certain things may differ. You also need many witnesses. The more witnesses you have the more likely they are telling the truth. I can provide you with as many witnesses as your heart desires concerning people encountering the reality of God in their prayer. They all are able to corroborate with each other even though they have never met concerning the experience.

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That "witness" may be fully, completely convinced that he saw that giant cheeseburger floating in the sky or whatever. But unless a completely independent observer who has no knowledge of that person's vision experience reports an exactly similar vision, the first person's testimony is worthless. And if no one else saw the giant floating cheeseburger, Occam's Razor suggests that it was indeed a hallucination rather than it was real and that this person was the only one to see it.

What happens when billions of people experience something? Wouldn't Occam's Razor at that point suggest that the simplest answer is that such an experience is real?

Quote:

So if someone says "God manifested himself to me," I say, "Fine, did anyone else see it?" And that someone else would have to be unknown to that someone, to eliminate the possibility of biased observation and/or mutual reinforcement.

You speak here as if seeing is believing. There are lots of other ways we can know something is true without seeing it.

Quote:

Parenthetically, if God wants us to believe in him, why would he be so coy about it? If he wrote "BELIEVE IN ME GOD DAMN IT" in thousand-foot high flaming letters across the sky, don't you think the convert rate would soar to 100%? Even us no-good immoral atheists!

Really you think that would work? I don't. What good are these billboards in the sky if people don't personally experience God and benefit from that relationship. Jesus was taunted with the same thing on the cross, "If you are the Son of God come down from the cross and we will believe in you." If your faith needs to be based in magic tricks or you need to be awed by some awesome sign of power that is not what God desires. He does not want to force you into believing in Him, again He wants a relationship. If someone came up to you and burst into flames and then said, "Now be my friend." Those things don't work together. Also please remember God is not being coy about anything. He has made it clear and desires nothing more than to reveal Himself to you. It is you who are being coy about actually trying to pray.

Quote: FrGamble

The more witnesses you have the more likely they are telling the truth. I can provide you with as many witnesses as your heart desires concerning people encountering the reality of God in their prayer. .

Meaningless. There are hundreds of people,
thousands worldwide, who claim to have
been abducted by aliens. By your logic
they are all telling the truth, without a
shred of evidence to back them up. Ditto
with Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
Your 'witnesses' for god are right in there
with those folks.