Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

No, assuming your major premise is true without a shred of evidence.

But you do assume there is a god, you
certainly have shown no evidence of
one. Your main argument is, look
around at all the believers, that should
be evidence enough.

It's only evidence of the gullibility of
the human mind, nothing else. As we've
said a hundred times, your other 'evidence'
is not evidence at all. If it were there would
be no atheists. We don't know what gravity
is or how it works, but is there anybody who
doesn't believe it exists? We have real
evidence for gravity, all you have is ersatz
evidence for your god.

Quote: FrGamble

Faith is a virtue of the human reason to reach conclusions based on the analysis of converging evidence

Of which you have none for the
existence of god. All you have is
faith based on wishful thinking,
which means you have nothing
at all.

Quote: Evenbob

As I said, faith is NOT a virtue, it's
desperation. .

I think you're shortchanging it.

The fact that it is abused by religion to continuously believe in something without real proof doesn't mean it's useless. It's useful for people trying to do lots of difficult things. It doesn't need a god to work though.

Most human capabilities have negative and positive uses. Religion has certainly abused imagination to create a whole lot of crap. And they use faith to declare the existence of a god without using the normal means of confirmation.

Quote: Evenbob

But you do assume there is a god, you
certainly have shown no evidence of
one.

You assume there is no God and certainly have shown no evidence to support your claim.

Quote:

Your main argument is, look
around at all the believers, that should
be evidence enough.

This is not my main argument, by the way what is your main argument for atheism - oh right you don't have one.

The main argument is multifaceted. First the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth and the impact He has had on human history. He was an iterant preacher whose message of God's love as our Heavenly Father and the in breaking of the Kingdom of God shook up the people of His day. He preached about the closeness of God to all people and His unconditional love. He lived to be about 33 and was crucified as a criminal of the state and abandoned by the religious elite. His disciples declared Him to be Resurrected as he promised and all the powers that be could not prove them wrong. They also could not silence His disciples who all beside one gave their life to proclaiming not some made up story or hallucination but the only explanation possible - it really happened. This early faith in Jesus Christ grew despite the persecutions of the most powerful empire in the world at the time persecuting it. Eventually it spread around the world to every culture and place on Earth. There have been countless unexplainable miracles attributed to the intercession of Mary, the Saints, and Our Lord. Living in a Christian way has become synonymous with living a good and healthy life and the life, teaching, and parables of Christ continue to be the greatest influences on art, music, poetry, and literature. The Judeo-Christian concept of morality is the basis and foundation for the morality, laws, and government proclaimed by Europe and the West. I really could go on and on about the impact Christianity has had in science, in social justice and caring for the most vulnerable, not to mention the way the theology resonates with our innate needs and inclinations as human beings. Notice also I haven't even gone through again the argument from first cause, the nature of contingency, the probability of the universe arising from chance, the impossibility of an infinite regress, etc. etc.

This is some of the evidence outside of my extensive personal experience of the reality of God that informs and helps me make the reasonable decision to put my faith in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Please I beg of you please give me any explanation, argument, or evidence for the reason you have faith that there is no God.

Quote: FrGamble

The main argument is multifaceted.

And multi-meaningless. None of what
you state is real evidence, it's only
anecdotal non evidence for people
who are already believers. For
an atheist, who's starting at square one,
you have no hard evidence at all.

Again, if you did, we would all be believers.
Instead, atheists are growing in number quite
fast, not declining.

First of all if God wrote in the sky with flaming letters, I AM HERE, there would still be atheists.

Why isn't the impact of the historical person of Jesus evidence?
Why isn't the fact that everything that is contingent needs a cause not evidence?
Why isn't the growth of the Church evidence or it's longevity?

Most importantly, why is it that you don't give any evidence to support your claim that there is no God?

Quote: FrGamble

First of all if God wrote in the sky with flaming letters, I AM HERE, there would still be atheists.

Yes, well, we're not primitives who can be overawed by a causal display of technology.

Quote:

Why isn't the impact of the historical person of Jesus evidence?

because it's clear there was no immediate impact beyond a small sect of fanatical followers. and we have no evidence of their doings except for books written decades after the facts.

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Why isn't the fact that everything that is contingent needs a cause not evidence?

Because you haven't proved the universe is contingent.

Quote:

Why isn't the growth of the Church evidence or it's longevity?

It is evidence of its size and longevity.

But if we take that as evidence of a deity, the Egyptian cult lasted about 50% longer, at least, than Christianity has thus far, and was believed by virtually 100% of the local population and several nearby kingdoms (like Nubia and Libya). That would make deities like Hathor, Knum and Thoth 50% more real than Jehovah and Jesus :)

Quote:

Most importantly, why is it that you don't give any evidence to support your claim that there is no God?

Here:

Quote:

Credible evidence for the existence of any kind of god:

1) Coffee

2)

3)

4)

5)

6)

7)

....

10,000)

Quote: FrGamble

First of all if God wrote in the sky with flaming letters, I AM HERE, there would still be atheists.

Because that would be silly. Real evidence
would never be denied, how could it be.

How is it possible to have evidence for
the non existence of something. It's lack
of being here is evidence enough.

Quote: Evenbob

How is it possible to have evidence for
the non existence of something. It's lack
of being here is evidence enough.

There you go again around and around with the circular arguments. Please take lessons from Nareed above as to how to engage in meaningful discussions about these things. Those are great challenges to actual evidence presented to support a belief in God. Nareed did not wish it away or pretend it doesn't exist, but rather addressed good objections as to why they are effective pieces of evidence.

Quote: FrGamble

There you go again around and around with the circular arguments.

Is it really circular? I think somethings
lack of being here is pretty good evidence
that it doesn't exist. I would have to have
a pretty strong agenda to go out of my
way and look for something I know isn't
there.